Safety Regulation Testing

[Alexo]

How common is an amp fire? Anyone ever had one? Cause? I would think a small child burning themselves on an exposed tube would be more likely.

Depends, all of our regulation-related griping is assuming the builders are competent. Someone could just as easily build an 18 watt with a 10 ohm cathode resistor, omit the fuse and use a crumbly, dried out, one-hundred year old power cable with no safety ground and no isolation/power transformer on the mains.

When you imagine an unsuspecting teenager screwing around with something like that, regulations and safety testing start to make a little more sense.

However, I've played some used, old beater amps that were in even worse shape than the above in local music stores, gotten zapped by them, told the store owners, come back a month later and seen the same old deathtraps on the showroom floor.

Many retailers are under the impression that selling something "as-is" clears them of any responsibility. Maybe they're right? Who knows.

[guitarmike2107]

Many retailers are under the impression that selling something "as-is" clears them of any responsibility. Maybe they're right? Who knows.

I dont think any authourity could force some one selling a second hand item "as is" to upgrade that item to meet current legislation. the original item should have been built to some standard in the past anyhow.

I found one link to an amp fire on you tube, I think shocks are a more likely problem...

[CurtissRobin]

An individual selling the odd amp here and there won't draw attention unless he sold a booby-trapped amp and the booby trap was discovered. Of course, the lower your net worth the less likely anyone will come after you. OTOH if you make a business of selling amps, no matter how informal, you can be held to a higher standard under the law (which varies from state to state, country to country, et al.).

KennyO

[Alexo]

Many retailers are under the impression that selling something "as-is" clears them of any responsibility. Maybe they're right? Who knows.

I dont think any authourity could force some one selling a second hand item "as is" to upgrade that item to meet current legislation.

But you'd at least expect them to take steps to prevent their customers from electrocuting themselves in their store....

[guitarmike2107]

But you'd at least expect them to take steps to prevent their customers from electrocuting themselves in their store....

yeah sorry I missed your point before, I agree, I guess in the states in particular that is a lawsuit waiting to happen

An individual selling the odd amp here and there won't draw attention unless he sold a booby-trapped amp and the booby trap was discovered. Of course, the lower your net worth the less likely anyone will come after you. OTOH if you make a business of selling amps, no matter how informal, you can be held to a higher standard under the law (which varies from state to state, country to country, et al.).

In the uk if you are selling an item and are not registered as a ltd company you would be selling as a sole trader, in which case if you were to get taken to court over anything you could end up loosing your personal possessions.. i.e. your house if you had one.. or two. Don’t think my wife would be too pleased.

I was going to say that if its booby trapped free then there shouldn’t be a any problem ever.. but people are dumb, and some guitarists are extra dumb.. so that’s probably not true. OTOH I am probably too much of a pessimist.

Have you ever heard of the stella awards
http://www.velvetaddiction.com/blog/index.php?p=345

[Shrapnel]

I did some looking at one point in time not too long ago on LLCs.

Here in the States, at least at the time of the book I did look at, a sole-owner LLC was iffy as far if a state would register and recognize it... and even less than that if another state would recognize it. So you'd almost have to have at least a partnership to even consider one that would be recognizable in all states.

Now Graydon, Gabi, or some of the others with established businesses here in the states, may be more up to date and know more on this than I do. If they do and wish to share, I'll humbly let their statements override mine.

[Chappy]

Have you ever heard of the stella awards
http://www.velvetaddiction.com/blog/index.php?p=345

Thanks for the link guitarmike. The last one is unbelievable

"1ST PLACE: (May I have a fanfare played on 50 kazoos please)

This year’s runaway First Place Stella Award winner was Mrs. Merv Grazinski, of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, who purchased a new 32-foot
Winnebago motor home. On her first trip home, from an OU football game, having driven on to the freeway, she set the cruise control at 70 mph and calmly left the driver’s seat to go to the back of the Winnebago to make herself a sandwich. Not surprisingly, the motor home left the freeway, crashed and overturned. Also not surprisingly, Mrs. Grazinski sued Winnebago for not putting in the owner’s manual that she couldn’t actually leave the driver’s seat while the cruise control was set. The Oklahoma jury awarded her, are you sitting down, $1,750,000 PLUS a new motor home. Winnebago actually changed their manuals as a result of this suit, just incase Mrs. Grazinski has any relatives who might also buy a motor home."

Idiotic lawsuits like this drove Cessna out of the small aircraft manufacturing back in the 70's or early 80's. Fortunately they are back in it now, but at a disadvantage after being out of the running for such a long period.


Chappy

[CurtissRobin]

Here in the States, at least at the time of the book I did look at, a sole-owner LLC was iffy as far if a state would register and recognize it... and even less than that if another state would recognize it. So you'd almost have to have at least a partnership to even consider one that would be recognizable in all states.

Um, no. If a state doesn't have a Limited Liability Corporation (LLC) defined in its statutes then you simply can't set one up in that state. There's nothing "iffy" about it. If an entity can't be filed with the state under its statutes then you don't have any associated liability shield.

Businesses are most often structured as one of the following. There are surely other choices in many states but these will cover most of what you'd consider when setting up a small business.
Sole Proprietorship
Partnership
Corporation (Chapter C or Chapter S)
LLC - Limited Liability Corporation
LLP - Limited Liability Partnership
PC - Professional Corporation

Let's assume that the goal is to sell products while limiting your exposure to claims of liability. The Sole Proprietorship and ordinary Partnership won't do it at all. Your liability exposure when operating as either of these is unlimited. i.e. They can take away your possessions and probably even your birthday. You don't even have to file with the state. If you operate as a one man business you are, by definition, a Sole Proprietor. Likewise, if two or more people operate a business you are, by definition, a Partnership and Partnership law will apply. The only gray area is the point at which you graduate from an individual selling the occasional amp to a businessman who sells amps for profit.

For liability shielding, incorporation is the best bet. There are three broadly recognized types of corporations, the C-Corp, the S-Corp and the Professional Corporation. A corporation is simply an artificial person. A C-Corp pays tax just as if it was a person so anything you, as an investor or owner take out of it has already been taxed and when you take a profit or a dividend you will also pay tax as an individual. Double taxation. An S-Corp also limits liability and is constrained in a number of ways including the number of shareholders. Its main advantage is that S-Corps are not taxed at the Federal level but they may be taxed by the state (CA does, for example). Your accountant generates a K1 from your business books and that goes into your personal tax return.

The Limited Liability Corporation (LLC) works much like an S-Corp but has some fine distinctions. The Limited Liability Partnership (LLP) I'm unfamiliar with so I don't know what it could do for amp builders. The PC is only for licensed professionals like MDs and CPAs.

Bottom line: it's a hassle and a half so don't even bother unless you're serious about going into business. If you do, I recommend retaining a lawyer to handle it for you. Legal liabiliity stuff is definitely not DIY.

KennyO