selling kits

The place to discuss 18W-related ampfests, get-togethers, gigs, etc. These should be of interest specifically to 18watt.com members.

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CurtissRobin
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Post by CurtissRobin »

That's imaginative but it requires that everyone else in the world subscribe to the same fantasy.

KennyO
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StarGeezers
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Post by StarGeezers »

Here's an idea : Sell pedal kits !!! pedals never killed anybody to my certain knowledge ... :lol: No worries !!! :wink:
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andrekp
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Post by andrekp »

If this were a bar exam question, I'd write that one way to look at it is that the supplier, is a supplier of PARTS, not an amplifier. It is no more a supplier of an amp than is say, Rat Shack, or AES, or Mouser, or... It is simply providing a grouping of parts that a customer can make into an amp, a broach, a hat, etc.

In effect, the customer is the manufacturer, and the customer is the one responsible for how those parts might be assembled.

The supplier furthers this semi-fiction by NOT providing any instructions one way or the other regarding the build. The only thing that might be provided is information, otherwise available to anyone that looks, of a schematic and/or layout of a particular circuit. Perhaps also offering a disclaimer somewhere stating that building an amp can be dangerous are involve high voltages, blah, blah, blah. It is effectively no different from finding an old Fender Champ schematic and layout on the web, assembling the parts you'd need from Mouser and AES, then building it. Short of a defect in an actual part, nobody would seriously hold AES responsible because they supplied you with your power cord!

So ultimately, the supplier of parts is only liable to the extent of strict liability, or negligent liability for those parts themselves, while the customer obtains liability for what is constructed of thise parts. (it's really no different than if you go to Home Despot and buy a water heater, and a bunch of copper pipes, ignore the warnings, or even the local building department reqyurements that it be properly installed according to some standard, then blow yourself up improperly installing it. Provided YOU caused it (i.e. it's not a manufacturing defect of one of the parts) you are pretty much the liable guy).

Alternatively, if a sucessful argument is made that Parts Supplier provided an amp, and not just a pile of parts, then the counter-argument potentially becomes one of modification, or of user negligence (you were warned that there's be 600V across this trannie, but you stuck your finger in it anyway, or you knew there was high voltage involved, but you negligently proceeded even though your knowledge and skills were sub-par, or ...)

having NO knowledge of any actual caselaw on this subject, that's at least one way this could play out.

As to liability for SG selling an amp, either from kit or scratch, to a third person who then is injured by it...that's a little trickier, but generally speaking, if SG buys a kit, then assembles if for a paying friend, then SG is providing a service, rather than a product, and thus would not be strictly liable, unless parts were defective. negligence would still be in play, I think.

But for all of it, there are further complications such as how the UCC warranties come into play, contributory/comparative negligence, misuse, etc. I'd need to know a lot more about products liability law than I do to really give a full answer. But I suspect that if you are just provided with parts, a schematic, and a warning, YOU will be the liable party when you attach the hot secondary to input ground. Although there WILL be another lawyer being paid to argue the opposite, and half of all clients lose their case, so...

Just some hypothetical thoughts.
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StarGeezers
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Post by StarGeezers »

Well ,isn't that a sour Pickle ??? Looks like I won't be selling , loaning , donating , renting, etc. any of my amps ... But that means less building (Grrrrr!!!) since I'm up to my arse in amps already ... Cool ... more for me !!!
Guessing if I want to do any commerce, pedals are the way to go ... no dangerous voltages, no liability , the worst case scenario being a bad review on You Tube... :roll:
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zaphod_phil
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Post by zaphod_phil »

Andrekp wrote:If this were a bar exam question, I'd write that one way to look at it is that the supplier, is a supplier of PARTS, not an amplifier. It is no more a supplier of an amp than is say, Rat Shack, or AES, or Mouser, or... It is simply providing a grouping of parts that a customer can make into an amp, a broach, a hat, etc. In effect, the customer is the manufacturer, and the customer is the one responsible for how those parts might be assembled.
In the case of Doberman Amps (Chris Hurley), this was in fact the route they were advised to take by their lawyer.
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Nature abhors a clean tube amp

guitarmike2107
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Post by guitarmike2107 »

zaphod_phil wrote:
Andrekp wrote:If this were a bar exam question, I'd write that one way to look at it is that the supplier, is a supplier of PARTS, not an amplifier. It is no more a supplier of an amp than is say, Rat Shack, or AES, or Mouser, or... It is simply providing a grouping of parts that a customer can make into an amp, a broach, a hat, etc. In effect, the customer is the manufacturer, and the customer is the one responsible for how those parts might be assembled.
In the case of Doberman Amps (Chris Hurley), this was in fact the route they were advised to take by their lawyer.
yes and makes the most sense.. the problem with providing a manual is you are essentially providing a documented training course on building that specific amp.


For your own amps, If you are in the US; would be considered a "competent” person for electrical work; build to a very high standard and take pictures/document what you have built, and make sure there is no way anybody could shock themselves on your amp ever.
Then you will probably be fine.

But for kit suppliers to try and instruct somebody to do this is impractical/impossible
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