5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

18watt-specific Tech Talk - Building, Fixing, Parts, Mods...

Moderators: CurtissRobin, colossal, zaphod_phil, Daviedawg, Graydon

Post Reply
User avatar
Bieworm
Verbose Moderator
Verbose Moderator
Posts: 2287
Joined: Mon 02/10/20 8:24 am
Location: Belgium

5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by Bieworm »

how would you compare the volume?
Which one is noisier?
Difference in beef?

Thx, BW
0 x
"THIS should be played at high volume..preferably in a residential area"

Daviedawg
Superior Amp Tech
Superior Amp Tech
Posts: 748
Joined: Fri 01/08/10 2:00 am
Location: Scotland

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by Daviedawg »

My hand is up. I have both. They are both equally loud for home use. Very hard to say one is louder than the other. My 5E3 has never been out of the house. VVR works great on the 18 watt but not great on the 5E3 which looses tone very early. So I only play the Fender when I am home alone with the windows shut when it can be very rewarding.
The cab for the fender has a yellow frame G12/50 which does not help quiet things down.
The Scout has a single 10" Elac alnico which takes the normal circuit to a useable level. Still loud but not unbearable in a small room. So speaker choice for expected use is more than just for tone.

Dd
Edit. Sorry I addressed only loudness there. They do different jobs as it were. Maybe I would describe it in AC/DC terms as 18 watt for Angus and 5E3 for Malcolm. The 18 watt is brighter. The 5E3 has beast mode.
2 x

katopan
Frequent poster
Frequent poster
Posts: 914
Joined: Mon 12/10/07 2:00 am
Location: Melb, Aust
Contact:

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by katopan »

I've got an 18 Watt and borrowed a 5E3 at one point for a while.

As DD said the volume is similar. Both are quite gainy and get dirty quick. But the tone and quality of the distortion is completely different as can be heard in demo clips of each.
1 x

User avatar
zaphod_phil
Builder, Admin
Builder, Admin
Posts: 15208
Joined: Wed 03/19/03 2:00 am
Location: YYZ

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by zaphod_phil »

To me, a 5E3 has a much more ragged breakup than a Marshall 18W. I've read the famous "Paul C" mod fixes that issue. I've heard clips of the 5D3 and like it's smoothness compared to the 5E3. So for a new build of a tweed, I think I'd go for a 5D3.
0 x
Nature abhors a clean tube amp

Joe Blow
Unrated
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat 04/18/20 10:53 am

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by Joe Blow »

My 18 watt is still a pile of parts, but I can comment on the 5E3. When I built mine, I didn't have a 5Y3 rectifier, so I subbed a GZ34. I also added a switched NFB circuit, and since I had a tap on the PT, I added a switched "fixed"/cathode bias. My intent was to firm up the little amp in the "fixed" and NFB setting for more clean headroom. I achieved my goal, but didn't get the easy breakup in cathode bias until higher volume levels! I plan to install a 5Y3 and re-bias to see if I get the breakup the 5E3 is known for.
My 18 watt build is the TMB design, so it too may not be the "traditional" sound!
1 x

User avatar
zaphod_phil
Builder, Admin
Builder, Admin
Posts: 15208
Joined: Wed 03/19/03 2:00 am
Location: YYZ

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by zaphod_phil »

Did you measure the difference in B+ voltage between the 5Y3 And GZ34. I expect it will have been higher, with the GZ34/5AR4, leading to later breakup. Why did you decide to use octal rectifiers, instead of the standard EZ81?
I feel sorry you chose to use NFB, as that deadens the amp's chime and harmonic richness.

An 18W TMB has the real deal 18W vibe, as long use you don't go spoiling it with stuff like NFB and fixed bias. :x
0 x
Nature abhors a clean tube amp

User avatar
Bieworm
Verbose Moderator
Verbose Moderator
Posts: 2287
Joined: Mon 02/10/20 8:24 am
Location: Belgium

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by Bieworm »

zaphod_phil wrote:
Sat 06/20/20 1:16 pm
Did you measure the difference in B+ voltage between the 5Y3 And GZ34. I expect it will have been higher, with the GZ34/5AR4, leading to later breakup. Why did you decide to use octal rectifiers, instead of the standard EZ81?
I feel sorry you chose to use NFB, as that deadens the amp's chime and harmonic richness.

An 18W TMB has the real deal 18W vibe, as long use you don't go spoiling it with stuff like NFB and fixed bias. :x
I asked this all because my fellow guitarplayer/singer in the band wants me to build a carryable amp for him. But he's a fender guy and plays a BF twin reverb. I think an 18 watt will be too tight for him. But I can try to convert him to play 18 watters too ;)
Maybe I should borrow him my modern classic for a while... and let's see how that turns out. But like me he needs reverb too. I am about to build that lamington stand alone reverb..so who knows ;)
Me, I just fell madly in love with my TMB tremolo... the last few rehearshals I played without OD pedals and did not miss them ever
Thanx again JMPGuitars !!!!
1 x
"THIS should be played at high volume..preferably in a residential area"

User avatar
zaphod_phil
Builder, Admin
Builder, Admin
Posts: 15208
Joined: Wed 03/19/03 2:00 am
Location: YYZ

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by zaphod_phil »

Bieworm wrote:
Sat 06/20/20 2:05 pm
zaphod_phil wrote:
Sat 06/20/20 1:16 pm
Did you measure the difference in B+ voltage between the 5Y3 And GZ34. I expect it will have been higher, with the GZ34/5AR4, leading to later breakup. Why did you decide to use octal rectifiers, instead of the standard EZ81?
I feel sorry you chose to use NFB, as that deadens the amp's chime and harmonic richness.

An 18W TMB has the real deal 18W vibe, as long use you don't go spoiling it with stuff like NFB and fixed bias. :x
I asked this all because my fellow guitarplayer/singer in the band wants me to build a carryable amp for him. But he's a fender guy and plays a BF twin reverb. I think an 18 watt will be too tight for him. But I can try to convert him to play 18 watters too ;)
A BF Twin, with its NFB and fixed bias is way tighter than an 18W. So I don't really understand the problem here. 18W amps have a pretty loose, vintage feel.
2 x
Nature abhors a clean tube amp

User avatar
Bieworm
Verbose Moderator
Verbose Moderator
Posts: 2287
Joined: Mon 02/10/20 8:24 am
Location: Belgium

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by Bieworm »

zaphod_phil wrote:
Sat 06/20/20 6:59 pm
Bieworm wrote:
Sat 06/20/20 2:05 pm
zaphod_phil wrote:
Sat 06/20/20 1:16 pm
Did you measure the difference in B+ voltage between the 5Y3 And GZ34. I expect it will have been higher, with the GZ34/5AR4, leading to later breakup. Why did you decide to use octal rectifiers, instead of the standard EZ81?
I feel sorry you chose to use NFB, as that deadens the amp's chime and harmonic richness.

An 18W TMB has the real deal 18W vibe, as long use you don't go spoiling it with stuff like NFB and fixed bias. :x
I asked this all because my fellow guitarplayer/singer in the band wants me to build a carryable amp for him. But he's a fender guy and plays a BF twin reverb. I think an 18 watt will be too tight for him. But I can try to convert him to play 18 watters too ;)
A BF Twin, with its NFB and fixed bias is way tighter than an 18W. So I don't really understand the problem here. 18W amps have a pretty loose, vintage feel.
I am talking about the huge difference in sound and feel. I was a tweed/brownface player before I build the 18watts. So my tone was kinda,sorta in that ballpark already...
I have owned various twins , but I always find them very disapointing. I never understood why one has 85 or 100 watts and still gets lost in the mix...
0 x
"THIS should be played at high volume..preferably in a residential area"

Joe Blow
Unrated
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat 04/18/20 10:53 am

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by Joe Blow »

I'm sure I will have voltage differences when I change the rectifier in the 5E3! Having the NFB, and "fixed" options on switches allows some options.
I have the 18watt circuit board mostly populated, and plan to stay with the TMB circuit. My chassis, and PT were bought when VHT was liquidating, so I will probably use the GZ34 as there is no 6V rectifier winding.
0 x

User avatar
zaphod_phil
Builder, Admin
Builder, Admin
Posts: 15208
Joined: Wed 03/19/03 2:00 am
Location: YYZ

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by zaphod_phil »

The GZ34 will tend to make the amp stiffer and with more clean headroom than a regular 18W, unless you add a sag resistor. If you prefer more of a vintage feel, a 5Y3 will probably suit you better, while also running off a 5V heater, like a GZ34.
0 x
Nature abhors a clean tube amp

katopan
Frequent poster
Frequent poster
Posts: 914
Joined: Mon 12/10/07 2:00 am
Location: Melb, Aust
Contact:

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by katopan »

Joe Blow wrote:
Fri 06/19/20 10:17 am
I plan to install a 5Y3 and re-bias to see if I get the breakup the 5E3 is known for.
The 5E3 I had for a while was a new build that I was fixing up for someone else. It didn't seem to get the "breakup the 5E3 is known for" either. Had a couple of things that needed changing but the biggest one was to put in a NOS 5Y3. Don't get me wrong either - I almost always use new production valves in my builds, unless it's using the Russki valves I've bought a bit of a collection of. I'm far from a NOS snob. But I read that the new production 5Y3 rectos have less voltage drop and a different curve than the original datasheets. We put a NOS 5Y3 in and it went from sounding blah to totally nailing the 5E3 tone.
3 x

Daviedawg
Superior Amp Tech
Superior Amp Tech
Posts: 748
Joined: Fri 01/08/10 2:00 am
Location: Scotland

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by Daviedawg »

Thanks for that nudge Kato. A couple of weeks ago I found an old rectifier 5Y3 in the cupboard stuck it in the 5E3 and forgot. I was playing the amp a few days ago and thought it sounded rounded and lovely. Your post reminded me about the old rectifier. It may be the reason it sounds different so I will have to investigate.

Dd
0 x

Joe Blow
Unrated
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat 04/18/20 10:53 am

Re: 5E3 and 18 watt classic: anyone has both?

Post by Joe Blow »

zaphod_phil wrote:
Mon 06/22/20 6:57 pm
The GZ34 will tend to make the amp stiffer and with more clean headroom than a regular 18W, unless you add a sag resistor. If you prefer more of a vintage feel, a 5Y3 will probably suit you better, while also running off a 5V heater, like a GZ34.
Thanks for that!
1 x

Post Reply