Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

Post by TriodeLuvr »

crgfrench wrote:
Tue 03/02/21 11:25 pm
TriodeLuvr wrote:
Sun 02/28/21 12:11 am
The gain of a LTP is typically less than half the gain of the tube in grounded cathode (bypassed) mode. With the Presence control at minimum resistance and no NFB, the Marshall 12AX7 LTP exhibits a voltage gain of approximately 22. Substituting a 12AT7 with no other changes, gain falls to about 16.5. That's a difference of 2.5 dB. I would have thought you'd need to pay close attention to hear that.
That difference gets amplified again in the output stage.
The output stage is a linear amplifier. One dB difference at the input produces one dB difference out. Maybe this was being used at a volume level where smaller differences are more obvious. I might try it myself, just to see if it helps with the High input volume.

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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

Post by JMPGuitars »

I posted a quick demo of where it's currently at: https://www.instagram.com/p/CMH9cJXg1iQ/

It was super clean on the scope.

There's something going on with the reverb though. I think either the reverb transformer is bad, or the connection to it is. The tube voltages are perfect, except pin 1 coming from the transformer, I can't get a read. I will investigate...eventually.
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

Post by JMPGuitars »

Aaaaaaaaaaaand there was nothing wrong with the reverb circuit at all...just the cable or tank I was testing with. I connected the tank actually going in the amp with a new cable, and it's juicy.

Here's a demo with reverb turned to around 65%: https://www.instagram.com/p/CMIoFL9AzV-/

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

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KICKA$$ amp as usual, Josh!!!

Now I start doubting which amp will be next. The 36W tremolo TMB.. or that 2204 project I'm preparing.. ah cr@ppp!!!

BTW, my modern classic changed from owner last saturday. I traded it for a hand built tele. I was planning on building one myself.. but the proposal was too tempting, since I know who built it. It's a local luthier that forged this fine instrument. Man that thing sounds awesome!!! He even winds his own pickups... It's thàt kind of builder ;)
20210306_185802.jpg
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

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JMPGuitars wrote:
Sun 03/07/21 5:50 pm
Aaaaaaaaaaaand there was nothing wrong with the reverb circuit at all...just the cable or tank I was testing with. I connected the tank actually going in the amp with a new cable, and it's juicy.

Here's a demo with reverb turned to around 65%: https://www.instagram.com/p/CMIoFL9AzV-/

Thanks,
Josh
Josh, I liked this clip so much, it made me regret omitting tremolo from my build. And if you knew how much I generally dislike Fender-style tremolo, you'd know what a big deal that is. Darn, now I'll probably have to add it into my do-all loop effects.
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

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TriodeLuvr wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 5:02 am
JMPGuitars wrote:
Sun 03/07/21 5:50 pm
Aaaaaaaaaaaand there was nothing wrong with the reverb circuit at all...just the cable or tank I was testing with. I connected the tank actually going in the amp with a new cable, and it's juicy.

Here's a demo with reverb turned to around 65%: https://www.instagram.com/p/CMIoFL9AzV-/

Thanks,
Josh
Josh, I liked this clip so much, it made me regret omitting tremolo from my build. And if you knew how much I generally dislike Fender-style tremolo, you'd know what a big deal that is. Darn, now I'll probably have to add it into my do-all loop effects.
You have to know that the blackface style optocell tremolo is totally different from the bias vary tremolo. I hate the opto tremolo too.. I even converted the opto style of my vibro king to bias vary for that reason
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

Post by JMPGuitars »

TriodeLuvr wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 5:02 am
Josh, I liked this clip so much, it made me regret omitting tremolo from my build. And if you knew how much I generally dislike Fender-style tremolo, you'd know what a big deal that is. Darn, now I'll probably have to add it into my do-all loop effects.
Thanks! I wasn't a fan of tremolo in general, but playing this version changed my mind too.
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

Post by JMPGuitars »

Bieworm wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 3:45 am
KICKA$$ amp as usual, Josh!!!

Now I start doubting which amp will be next. The 36W tremolo TMB.. or that 2204 project I'm preparing.. ah cr@ppp!!!

BTW, my modern classic changed from owner last saturday. I traded it for a hand built tele. I was planning on building one myself.. but the proposal was too tempting, since I know who built it. It's a local luthier that forged this fine instrument. Man that thing sounds awesome!!! He even winds his own pickups... It's thàt kind of builder ;)
20210306_185802.jpg
Thanks!

Nice looking guitar. I think we're gonna need to hear a demo to see if that guy makes good pickups. ;)

I don't like when big guitar manufacturers make pickups, but some small luthiers do a good job. I hate almost all the PRS or Gibson or Fender pickups I've ever played. Lace, DiMarzio, Fralin, even Kent Armstrong, etc... are sooooooooooooooo much better.
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

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JMPGuitars wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 9:16 am
Bieworm wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 3:45 am
KICKA$$ amp as usual, Josh!!!

Now I start doubting which amp will be next. The 36W tremolo TMB.. or that 2204 project I'm preparing.. ah cr@ppp!!!

BTW, my modern classic changed from owner last saturday. I traded it for a hand built tele. I was planning on building one myself.. but the proposal was too tempting, since I know who built it. It's a local luthier that forged this fine instrument. Man that thing sounds awesome!!! He even winds his own pickups... It's thàt kind of builder ;)
20210306_185802.jpg
Thanks!

Nice looking guitar. I think we're gonna need to hear a demo to see if that guy makes good pickups. ;)

I don't like when big guitar manufacturers make pickups, but some small luthiers do a good job. I hate almost all the PRS or Gibson or Fender pickups I've ever played. Lace, DiMarzio, Fralin, even Kent Armstrong, etc... are sooooooooooooooo much better.
I hear you! My guitars all have special pickups:
Strat: chevalier pickups
62 jag: its originals ofcourse
Home made jag: lollars
Home made jazzmaster: novaks (p90 bridge)
...
No fan of fender pickups either.. I hate duncans. They always sound cheap and blah
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

Post by JMPGuitars »

Bieworm wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 9:48 am
No fan of fender pickups either.. I hate duncans. They always sound cheap and blah
SD pickups are still better than Fender/Gibson pickups. Lace and DiMarzio are my favorites. They make pickups that sing and/or scream.
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

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JMPGuitars wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 10:24 am
Bieworm wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 9:48 am
No fan of fender pickups either.. I hate duncans. They always sound cheap and blah
SD pickups are still better than Fender/Gibson pickups. Lace and DiMarzio are my favorites. They make pickups that sing and/or scream.
Yeah, but that DiMarzio thing is from a humbucker perspective... I'm a single coil man 😃
Though the superdistortion is my fav bridge humbucker
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

Post by JMPGuitars »

Bieworm wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 10:56 am
Yeah, but that DiMarzio thing is from a humbucker perspective... I'm a single coil man 😃
Though the superdistortion is my fav bridge humbucker
I am mostly into humbuckers, that's true. Though my favorites from DiMarzio are FRED, Gravity Storm, Vintage Mini Humbucker, and a few others. They're crazy backed up right now. I have a Chopper T pickup coming for a tele bridge. I'm looking forward to hearing that with the vintage mini in the neck.

The best single coil sound I've ever heard is the Lace "Holy Grail" set, but I also love their sensor series. Gold, hot gold, green, violet, etc... All sound great. I love their Alumitone series. I think my favorite humbuckers from Lace are the Hemi series. Fantastic creamy tone, that can still crunch. Honestly I haven't heard anything from them that wasn't great, but obviously different pickups are made for different styles.

I do coil split a lot for single coil tone, and both companies sound great that way.
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

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JMPGuitars wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 11:31 am
Bieworm wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 10:56 am
Yeah, but that DiMarzio thing is from a humbucker perspective... I'm a single coil man 😃
Though the superdistortion is my fav bridge humbucker
I am mostly into humbuckers, that's true. Though my favorites from DiMarzio are FRED, Gravity Storm, Vintage Mini Humbucker, and a few others. They're crazy backed up right now. I have a Chopper T pickup coming for a tele bridge. I'm looking forward to hearing that with the vintage mini in the neck.

The best single coil sound I've ever heard is the Lace "Holy Grail" set, but I also love their sensor series. Gold, hot gold, green, violet, etc... All sound great. I love their Alumitone series. I think my favorite humbuckers from Lace are the Hemi series. Fantastic creamy tone, that can still crunch. Honestly I haven't heard anything from them that wasn't great, but obviously different pickups are made for different styles.

I do coil split a lot for single coil tone, and both companies sound great that way.
You clearly know your stuff. I've been into offset f*nders for ages.. the aftermarket pickups are scarse for those. But I'm good with the ones that are available. Used to be a bigtime humbucker player for years, but in those days I wasn't into modding and tweaking. Just the standard prs and gibson stuff...
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

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Bieworm wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 11:58 am
You clearly know your stuff. I've been into offset f*nders for ages.. the aftermarket pickups are scarse for those. But I'm good with the ones that are available. Used to be a bigtime humbucker player for years, but in those days I wasn't into modding and tweaking. Just the standard prs and gibson stuff...
I love offsets. One of my favorites is a G&L SC-2 I customized: https://www.instagram.com/p/BYE2IakhWC1/

The tele bridge pickup (Chopper T) I was referring to is going into an offset tele/master style guitar I'm building. That should be fun.
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

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JMPGuitars wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 12:14 pm
Bieworm wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 11:58 am
You clearly know your stuff. I've been into offset f*nders for ages.. the aftermarket pickups are scarse for those. But I'm good with the ones that are available. Used to be a bigtime humbucker player for years, but in those days I wasn't into modding and tweaking. Just the standard prs and gibson stuff...
I love offsets. One of my favorites is a G&L SC-2 I customized: https://www.instagram.com/p/BYE2IakhWC1/

The tele bridge pickup (Chopper T) I was referring to is going into an offset tele/master style guitar I'm building. That should be fun.
Nice! I saw that one in one of your videos! Love the white with the tortoise guard. It's a sunday guitar, wearing that nice suit 😇
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

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Bieworm wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 5:46 am

You have to know that the blackface style optocell tremolo is totally different from the bias vary tremolo. I hate the opto tremolo too.. I even converted the opto style of my vibro king to bias vary for that reason
Well, the amp in this thread doesn't use either method, right? It modulates the gain of the tremolo channel by varying the B+ on the preamp stage. That means there are actually at least three methods.

My first-ever commercial amplifier was a Guild Thunder 1 that I bought new around '65 or '66. It had bias tremolo, and I hated it. Whether that was due to the specific tremolo technique I'm not sure, but to me it was just a cheesy effect that no one except Tommy James would ever use. A very different sound than the clip Josh recorded.

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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

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TriodeLuvr wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 1:26 pm
Bieworm wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 5:46 am

You have to know that the blackface style optocell tremolo is totally different from the bias vary tremolo. I hate the opto tremolo too.. I even converted the opto style of my vibro king to bias vary for that reason
Well, the amp in this thread doesn't use either method, right? It modulates the gain of the tremolo channel by varying the B+ on the preamp stage. That means there are actually at least three methods.

My first-ever commercial amplifier was a Guild Thunder 1 that I bought new around '65 or '66. It had bias tremolo, and I hated it. Whether that was due to the specific tremolo technique I'm not sure, but to me it was just a cheesy effect that no one except Tommy James would ever use. A very different sound than the clip Josh recorded.

Jack
No this amp wiggles the signal in the preamp stage. It's a very nice tremolo effect. Strong enough.
But the bias vary on my vibro king is a copy of the brown vibroverb. That is the best trem on the planet. When you play with lots of overdrive the tremolo effect mushes up the sound, but that 6G16 tremolo holds the sound together in a superior way, oozing and swamping in a way you think your speakers are gonna blow up. Niiiiiiice!!!
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

Post by Bieworm »

Josh, in the next clip please demo the reverb know with the extra caps switched on and off. Being a reverb-o-phile I'm really curious about that feature.
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

Post by TriodeLuvr »

Bieworm wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 1:36 pm
TriodeLuvr wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 1:26 pm
Bieworm wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 5:46 am

You have to know that the blackface style optocell tremolo is totally different from the bias vary tremolo. I hate the opto tremolo too.. I even converted the opto style of my vibro king to bias vary for that reason
Well, the amp in this thread doesn't use either method, right? It modulates the gain of the tremolo channel by varying the B+ on the preamp stage. That means there are actually at least three methods.

My first-ever commercial amplifier was a Guild Thunder 1 that I bought new around '65 or '66. It had bias tremolo, and I hated it. Whether that was due to the specific tremolo technique I'm not sure, but to me it was just a cheesy effect that no one except Tommy James would ever use. A very different sound than the clip Josh recorded.

Jack
No this amp wiggles the signal in the preamp stage. It's a very nice tremolo effect. Strong enough.
But the bias vary on my vibro king is a copy of the brown vibroverb. That is the best trem on the planet. When you play with lots of overdrive the tremolo effect mushes up the sound, but that 6G16 tremolo holds the sound together in a superior way, oozing and swamping in a way you think your speakers are gonna blow up. Niiiiiiice!!!
The Thunder 1 was bias tremolo, but different in several ways. For one thing, there was no Intensity control. For another, I don't remember it being able to tremolo as slowly as the version in Josh's clip. Also, the 6G16 and Tremolo TMB appear to have more gain stages. That would change the tone quite a bit, especially when it's cranked. Maybe my negative impression of that amp's tremolo is the result of all these things together.

I'm already thinking that if I build another amp, it might be based on the Guild Thunder 1 RTV (reverb-tremolo) version. That also uses bias tremolo, but it includes an intensity control. Tone controls are based on the James bass/treble topology, not TMB. Most interesting to me is that it uses an entirely separate amplifier chain and speaker for reverb. I just happen to have two amplifier chassis from Hammond organs that do the same thing. Each chassis powers a pair of 7591 at 45-50W for the main channel, and a pair of 6GW8 at about 15W for the reverb-only output. I need to decide over the next few months whether to use these for a stereo pair (HI-FI) or two guitar amps. :D

Jack
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Re: Josh's 18W Tremolo TMB Builds

Post by JMPGuitars »

TriodeLuvr wrote:
Mon 03/08/21 3:07 pm
The Thunder 1 was bias tremolo, but different in several ways. For one thing, there was no Intensity control. For another, I don't remember it being able to tremolo as slowly as the version in Josh's clip. Also, the 6G16 and Tremolo TMB appear to have more gain stages. That would change the tone quite a bit, especially when it's cranked. Maybe my negative impression of that amp's tremolo is the result of all these things together.
My trem goes that slow because I doubled the 1st capacitor to reduce the speed. There are different methods to achieve slower speeds with this circuit. Merlin covers at least 1 or 2 of them on his site. I'd suggest looking over his thoughts on tremolo if you're planning on doing something funky.
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