EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

18watt-specific Tech Talk - Building, Fixing, Parts, Mods...

Moderators: zaphod_phil, Daviedawg, Graydon, CurtissRobin, colossal

User avatar
JMPGuitars
Super Duper Admin
Super Duper Admin
Posts: 4024
Joined: Tue 09/18/12 8:00 pm
Location: South Central, MA
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by JMPGuitars »

Check your wiring. Make sure you're measuring DC voltage. And use the correct voltage chart: files/JMPGuitars_18W_EF86_TMB_Modern_Cl ... ltages.pdf

Also, you oriented your power tube sockets reverse of how I would have. It may not matter, but it means you have to be extra careful checking your wiring.

Thanks,
Josh
0 x
'I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious.' - Steven Wright

Modern Ground Schemes
Soldering Technique
B+ Voltage Reduction
Amplifier Tools & Parts Info


Web Design: DolceVittoria.com
Guitars / Amps / Effects: JMPGuitars.com
(anti)Social: Facebook · Instagram
Items for Sale

Daviedawg
Superior Amp Tech
Superior Amp Tech
Posts: 754
Joined: Fri 01/08/10 2:00 am
Location: Scotland

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by Daviedawg »

Simplest thing to go wrong are the power valves themselves. Swap them first and see if the readings follow. If you do not find any wiring issues which are going to be localised to the valve connections since the other one is reading ok, you could try swapping the OT connections over and see if the issue follows.

Dd
2 x

User avatar
foreverstrung
Occasional poster
Occasional poster
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun 10/10/21 5:53 pm
Location: Seabrook Texas
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by foreverstrung »

Simplest thing to go wrong are the power valves themselves. Swap them first and see if the readings follow. If you do not find any wiring issues which are going to be localised to the valve connections since the other one is reading ok, you could try swapping the OT connections over and see if the issue follows.
Also, you oriented your power tube sockets reverse of how I would have. It may not matter, but it means you have to be extra careful checking your wiring.

I reversed the EL84's and still the same readings and location.
Switched the blue/brown wires from the OT and pin7 @ V4/5. Voltage issued followed the wires
All wiring at the sockets and elsewhere are connected as itis in the layout. Triple checked.
Talked to Gradyon at GDS and he said to disconnect the blue and brown wires from the tube sockets and measure the ohms. Should be 600 ohms blue to brown. 300 ohms blue to red (center tap at 32/32 cap) and 300 ohms brown to red.......I got 366 ohms blue to red. OL brown to red and OL blue to brown........Graydon sent me a replacement.
Of course I thought It might be my fault the OT was faulty, but I checked everything multiple times and see nothing. Upon first power up I used a dim bulb with no issue. It never blinked.

The chassis came with the power tube sockets oriented differently. I really should have just drilled them out. In fact, I'm real happy with how this amp is dressed out, except for the heaters. There done right, I've really made sure of that with the oriented issue, but the wiring and shrink wrap just looks sad compared to the rest of the amp. I might just redo them while I wait for the new OT
1 x

User avatar
foreverstrung
Occasional poster
Occasional poster
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun 10/10/21 5:53 pm
Location: Seabrook Texas
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by foreverstrung »

Attached is the voltage chart. I'm still getting some high voltage. Appreciate any thoughts
Thx
voltage chart 5.25.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
0 x

User avatar
Bieworm
Verbose Moderator
Verbose Moderator
Posts: 2361
Joined: Mon 02/10/20 8:24 am
Location: Belgium

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by Bieworm »

The plate voltage on V1a looks like the 100k resistor is shorted. Overal voltages are pretty high. Start with lowering the voltage at node A and work your way down from there. But FIRST check that plate resistor on pin 1 of V1!!!!
1 x
"THIS should be played at high volume..preferably in a residential area"

User avatar
foreverstrung
Occasional poster
Occasional poster
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun 10/10/21 5:53 pm
Location: Seabrook Texas
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by foreverstrung »

The plate voltage on V1a looks like the 100k resistor is shorted. Overal voltages are pretty high. Start with lowering the voltage at node A and work your way down from there. But FIRST check that plate resistor on pin 1 of V1!!!!
Lower at node A with a Zener diode or 2??
0 x

User avatar
foreverstrung
Occasional poster
Occasional poster
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun 10/10/21 5:53 pm
Location: Seabrook Texas
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by foreverstrung »

I replaced the 100k plate resistor. The old one soldered in place gave a high reading, like 138k, so removed it and then it read fine removed from the amp. Like 99.8k. I measured a new one and soldered in place with no difference. Still high voltage @V1P1 and elsewhere.
So next I measured, the 27k wirewound and it read 28.9k, so I removed it and replaced with new one. In place it read 28.9. When I removed it it read 26.9k……….
Chasing down this voltage issue, should I go backwards from V1P1 and if so, when do I , if ever, have to remove the cap/resistor to get an accurate reading?
Thx
0 x

User avatar
JMPGuitars
Super Duper Admin
Super Duper Admin
Posts: 4024
Joined: Tue 09/18/12 8:00 pm
Location: South Central, MA
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by JMPGuitars »

foreverstrung wrote:
Thu 05/25/23 5:16 pm
I replaced the 100k plate resistor. The old one soldered in place gave a high reading, like 138k, so removed it and then it read fine removed from the amp. Like 99.8k. I measured a new one and soldered in place with no difference. Still high voltage @V1P1 and elsewhere.
So next I measured, the 27k wirewound and it read 28.9k, so I removed it and replaced with new one. In place it read 28.9. When I removed it it read 26.9k……….
Chasing down this voltage issue, should I go backwards from V1P1 and if so, when do I , if ever, have to remove the cap/resistor to get an accurate reading?
Thx
If a resistor is reading high, that means the voltage at the connected part would likely be lower than expected. You're looking for a resistor with a much lower value than expected, to produce a higher voltage than expected. All you need to do is look at the schematic for the B+ rail to see what is what. Also check your cathode resistors to make sure they're correct.

OTOH, a faulty tube could also cause voltage issues. Try swapping tubes and see if the voltages look different.
2 x
'I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious.' - Steven Wright

Modern Ground Schemes
Soldering Technique
B+ Voltage Reduction
Amplifier Tools & Parts Info


Web Design: DolceVittoria.com
Guitars / Amps / Effects: JMPGuitars.com
(anti)Social: Facebook · Instagram
Items for Sale

User avatar
foreverstrung
Occasional poster
Occasional poster
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun 10/10/21 5:53 pm
Location: Seabrook Texas
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by foreverstrung »

So I was having a moment with the EF86 channel on this amp. TMB channel is spot on, but the EF86, not so much.... Found out with time what the problem was. I had a 680ohms resistor at pin 1, the grid. Supposed to be 680K. Big diff. I didn't have a 680k resistor so I put three 221k resistors in series to get close, just to see if I was on the right track. The voltages got better and the sound is pretty awesome. Output is strong, clean and no unwanted noise..... I'm hoping the voltages on V2 P1 and 6 will balance out with the right resistance. I've got the correct resistor ordered.
So attached is the current voltage chart. Appreciate any feedback. B+ is higher than I'd hope. I put a zener diode at the A+ to bring the voltage down to where it should be, and it is, but B+, as I said, is still high
.
Also, I'd appreciate clarification on the Bias calculator to figure dissipation. [url]https://robrobinette.com/Tube_Bias_Calculator.htm/url]
I get the top part, tube bias. I can enter and calculate, but going down to "Tube Dissipation Using Cathode Resistor Voltage Drop", I'm not clear on what info to enter to calculate dissipation. appreciate some help here too.
Sound check coming soon.
EF86 votage chart.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
0 x

User avatar
JMPGuitars
Super Duper Admin
Super Duper Admin
Posts: 4024
Joined: Tue 09/18/12 8:00 pm
Location: South Central, MA
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by JMPGuitars »

B+ doesn't drop before the Zener. You use the Zener to drop the voltage following the Zener. So you need to shift the OT CT from A to the other side of the Zener, like I show in the docs:
zeners.jpg

Once the Zener is in place, you consider the post Zener voltage as A (where the OT CT should now be connected).

Do you have it wired like the image above, or do you need to move the red OT CT wire?
tube-diss.jpg

Based on the above numbers, and assuming you're using a 180 ohm cathode resistor, I would guess you haven't moved the red wire from the OT CT to after the Zeners?

Thanks,
Josh
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1 x
'I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious.' - Steven Wright

Modern Ground Schemes
Soldering Technique
B+ Voltage Reduction
Amplifier Tools & Parts Info


Web Design: DolceVittoria.com
Guitars / Amps / Effects: JMPGuitars.com
(anti)Social: Facebook · Instagram
Items for Sale

User avatar
foreverstrung
Occasional poster
Occasional poster
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun 10/10/21 5:53 pm
Location: Seabrook Texas
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by foreverstrung »

Attached is how I've got the zener diode wired. Hopefully you can read my chicken scratches marked up.
IMG_2026.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
0 x

User avatar
JMPGuitars
Super Duper Admin
Super Duper Admin
Posts: 4024
Joined: Tue 09/18/12 8:00 pm
Location: South Central, MA
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by JMPGuitars »

So you're at 346.9VDC where the OT CT is connected? That's good if correct.

If that's the case, you need to increase your cathode resistor. If you're using 180Ω, then try 200 or 220 Ω.
1 x
'I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious.' - Steven Wright

Modern Ground Schemes
Soldering Technique
B+ Voltage Reduction
Amplifier Tools & Parts Info


Web Design: DolceVittoria.com
Guitars / Amps / Effects: JMPGuitars.com
(anti)Social: Facebook · Instagram
Items for Sale

User avatar
foreverstrung
Occasional poster
Occasional poster
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun 10/10/21 5:53 pm
Location: Seabrook Texas
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by foreverstrung »

So I had to play around with the cathode resistors and zener diodes to get my voltages in the right levels. I ended up going from 180 to 200 to 220v cathode resistors and was never getting the sweet spot. I added a second zener diode and went back to the 180v cathode resistor to get my tube dissipation to 88%. voltage now at A+is 338v. B+ is 319v.
Extremely happy with the sound. Both channels. Each is unique. The TMB channel has such a sweet "shimmer" in the sound. The EF86 is cleaner. Low to no gain. I'm going to see how it takes a pedal this morning. I've been playing around with it all week. Just straight/clean thru the amp. No pedals.
I'll send clips later today.
1 x

User avatar
JMPGuitars
Super Duper Admin
Super Duper Admin
Posts: 4024
Joined: Tue 09/18/12 8:00 pm
Location: South Central, MA
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by JMPGuitars »

Post your voltages. I'm curious about this one. The EF86 should have some dirt.
0 x
'I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious.' - Steven Wright

Modern Ground Schemes
Soldering Technique
B+ Voltage Reduction
Amplifier Tools & Parts Info


Web Design: DolceVittoria.com
Guitars / Amps / Effects: JMPGuitars.com
(anti)Social: Facebook · Instagram
Items for Sale

User avatar
foreverstrung
Occasional poster
Occasional poster
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun 10/10/21 5:53 pm
Location: Seabrook Texas
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by foreverstrung »

Post your voltages. I'm curious about this one. The EF86 should have some dirt.
I've got no complaints. Really like what I'm hearing coming out of the box :D

newest voltage chart.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
0 x

User avatar
JMPGuitars
Super Duper Admin
Super Duper Admin
Posts: 4024
Joined: Tue 09/18/12 8:00 pm
Location: South Central, MA
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by JMPGuitars »

I think your socket is still wired wrong. Pins 3 and 8 on the EF86 are supposed to be connected, and should both show exactly the same voltage. There's no way that could pass a highlighter test and show a voltage discrepancy.

It may sound good now, but it will sound even better when it's correct.

Thanks,
Josh
0 x
'I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious.' - Steven Wright

Modern Ground Schemes
Soldering Technique
B+ Voltage Reduction
Amplifier Tools & Parts Info


Web Design: DolceVittoria.com
Guitars / Amps / Effects: JMPGuitars.com
(anti)Social: Facebook · Instagram
Items for Sale

User avatar
foreverstrung
Occasional poster
Occasional poster
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun 10/10/21 5:53 pm
Location: Seabrook Texas
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by foreverstrung »

I think your socket is still wired wrong. Pins 3 and 8 on the EF86 are supposed to be connected, and should both show exactly the same voltage. There's no way that could pass a highlighter test and show a voltage discrepancy.

It may sound good now, but it will sound even better when it's correct.
Pins 3 and 8 are exactly the same voltage and are connected. Both show the same voltage. This voltage chart on V2 (EF86) P3 and P8 both have 1.2v
0 x

User avatar
JMPGuitars
Super Duper Admin
Super Duper Admin
Posts: 4024
Joined: Tue 09/18/12 8:00 pm
Location: South Central, MA
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by JMPGuitars »

foreverstrung wrote:
Sun 06/11/23 2:05 pm
I think your socket is still wired wrong. Pins 3 and 8 on the EF86 are supposed to be connected, and should both show exactly the same voltage. There's no way that could pass a highlighter test and show a voltage discrepancy.

It may sound good now, but it will sound even better when it's correct.
Pins 3 and 8 are exactly the same voltage and are connected. Both show the same voltage. This voltage chart on V2 (EF86) P3 and P8 both have 1.2v
Oops. You're right, I mixed up V1 and V2. So you need to fix V1. ;) Check the 680Ω resistor at pin 8, and the 1uF cap. One of them is likely shorted.

Anyway, you should be able to get dirt on the EF86 channel, though you probably have to crank the gain a bit. I would check the resistor values for the 680K and 68K resistors. Or just enjoy it if you don't want the extra dirt.

Either way, V1 should be corrected.
1 x
'I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious.' - Steven Wright

Modern Ground Schemes
Soldering Technique
B+ Voltage Reduction
Amplifier Tools & Parts Info


Web Design: DolceVittoria.com
Guitars / Amps / Effects: JMPGuitars.com
(anti)Social: Facebook · Instagram
Items for Sale

User avatar
foreverstrung
Occasional poster
Occasional poster
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun 10/10/21 5:53 pm
Location: Seabrook Texas
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by foreverstrung »

Check the 680Ω resistor at pin 8, and the 1uF cap. One of them is likely shorted.
Checked cap and resistor in place and they looked good. I rechecked the voltages and V1 and P3 and P8 are reading as they should be. P3 1.2v and P8 .7v......just moving thru too quick.
Thx
Post your voltages. I'm curious about this one. The EF86 should have some dirt.
Regarding this, it actually does have some "dirt" with increased volume. Just much easier, for me, to get that cleaner sound I'm sometimes looking for with this EF86 channel than the TMB channel. The EF86 channel is not as "touch sensitive" as the TMB channel. In my opinion.....and I like it!!! :D
Last edited by foreverstrung on Sun 06/11/23 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1 x

User avatar
JMPGuitars
Super Duper Admin
Super Duper Admin
Posts: 4024
Joined: Tue 09/18/12 8:00 pm
Location: South Central, MA
Contact:

Re: EF86 TMB Modern Classic (New Project)

Post by JMPGuitars »

foreverstrung wrote:
Sun 06/11/23 7:14 pm
Check the 680Ω resistor at pin 8, and the 1uF cap. One of them is likely shorted.
Checked cap and resistor in place and they looked good. I rechecked the voltages and V1 and P3 and P8 are reading as they should be. P3 1.2v and P8 .7v......just moving thru too quick.
Thx
Well, nice work then! Where's the demo? 😉
1 x
'I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious.' - Steven Wright

Modern Ground Schemes
Soldering Technique
B+ Voltage Reduction
Amplifier Tools & Parts Info


Web Design: DolceVittoria.com
Guitars / Amps / Effects: JMPGuitars.com
(anti)Social: Facebook · Instagram
Items for Sale

Post Reply