Carbon Fibre cabinets

[overlock]

Now we're talking surfboard construction. And of course you could have flashy custom paint jobs too. This could revolutionize amp aesthetics.

The future's so bright - I gotta wear shades.

[Cknopp]

Oh no!

That guy made it out of foam (like I said before, and was told every opinion-as-fact why it would NOT work), and it looks to work very well!

Of course, instead of the glass fiber that he refers to, I did suggest simply spraying it with Rhino Liner, so the build time would drop to about 45 minutes per cabinet....

[LeeMo]

Here's a tangential thread:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=549976
He has a more refined method on this one. I've had thoughts of making a 4-12 slant with the bottom two speakers pulled to give a 2-12.

LeeMo

[Badfinger]

Oh no!

That guy made it out of foam (like I said before, and was told every opinion-as-fact why it would NOT work), and it looks to work very well!

Of course, instead of the glass fiber that he refers to, I did suggest simply spraying it with Rhino Liner, so the build time would drop to about 45 minutes per cabinet....

Who said it wouldn't work?
I found it made for a very dry, dead cabinet. Some folks like that. Some folks don't. Thats basically all I said.

I think the way the guy did the cab with board foam is pretty cool.

[Cknopp]

Oh no!

That guy made it out of foam (like I said before, and was told every opinion-as-fact why it would NOT work), and it looks to work very well!

Of course, instead of the glass fiber that he refers to, I did suggest simply spraying it with Rhino Liner, so the build time would drop to about 45 minutes per cabinet....

Who said it wouldn't work?
I found it made for a very dry, dead cabinet. Some folks like that. Some folks don't. Thats basically all I said.

I think the way the guy did the cab with board foam is pretty cool.

The way that you write this sounds as if you have built one and tried it yourself.

Have you done this, or is this what you think would happen? I am very interested in that particular distinction, so I look forward to the answer!

Chris

[Badfinger]

Yes, I built composite construction cabinets in the 90's, and had mixed results... but I really think, like I said before, it's simply a taste thing.
The foam/glass cabinets I did I didn't personally like, as they had too much ringing.
The foam/wood/bedliner cabinets I liked very much for PA cabs, but still not so much for guitar cabs, but some of my friends liked them a lot.

I wrote about my experiences in more detail in the "finger joint" thread.

I think it's hard to decide if you're going to like something or not, based just on description by others. You have to try it and see if you like it.

Randal

[Firestar]

Hi Guys.
Without wishing to discourage anyone in my first post, I work in carbon fibre/nanocomposite development, and for anything except a flat square affair made from very expensive sheet glued together with an epoxy resin, the job would be very difficult to do as DIY.

CF is nothing like fibreglass, i.e you can't hand lay it and cover it with resin.
You'd need a mould, some pre-impregnated CF, a press which would press to at least 50-100 tons and a temperature of about 200 deg celcius to do the job properly.

It can be done in a fashion using a vacuum pump made from an old fridge compressor, high temp plastic vacuum bag and an oven, but the odds are that without sufficient pressure it would still be full of holes, dull, weak and not waterproof.(and a lot of cash down the drain!)

Also, at the thickness you'd need it would weigh so much you may as well make a plywood one and stick CF patterned sticky back plastic all over it.

[Firestar]

however, it makes great front panels, especially if you have a matching scratchplate on your guitar.

[Badfinger]

Hi Guys.
Without wishing to discourage anyone in my first post, I work in carbon fibre/nanocomposite development, and for anything except a flat square affair made from very expensive sheet glued together with an epoxy resin, the job would be very difficult to do as DIY.

CF is nothing like fibreglass, i.e you can't hand lay it and cover it with resin.
You'd need a mould, some pre-impregnated CF, a press which would press to at least 50-100 tons and a temperature of about 200 deg celcius to do the job properly.

It can be done in a fashion using a vacuum pump made from an old fridge compressor, high temp plastic vacuum bag and an oven, but the odds are that without sufficient pressure it would still be full of holes, dull, weak and not waterproof.(and a lot of cash down the drain!)

Also, at the thickness you'd need it would weigh so much you may as well make a plywood one and stick CF patterned sticky back plastic all over it.

Perhaps thats the method you are most familiar with, but to say it cannot be layed-up by hand succesfully is simply wrong. The boat-building side of my family has been doing it for about 15 years, along with kevlar and Glass, and the company has done a lot of prototyping work for companies who then went on to use methods like those you described.

I for one don't like working with it, as I'm a bit concerned over the health issues that go along with not being properly set-up for it, but it most certainly can be done safely, and on a small scale, if one wants to and is willing to take the nessecary precautions.

[Cknopp]

Bad, thanks for clarifying for me. The other post looked as if you had a strong opinion about what you "thought" it would sound like without actually doing it yourself.

And I have to agree with you on the DIY aspect. I own several books that show several methods of doing Carbon fibre at home. They are not the laser cut, pre-preg, CNC epoxy molds, autoclave cured methods that Formula 1 teams use, but from the pictures that accompany the text, you can get some VERY good results if you are set up correctly, know your stuff, and are well prepared with materials and ventillation.

Maybe the new guy that posted on here has a good source to purchase the CF since he is in the"Industry"? I would llike to get a roll of some herringbone to mess around with!

Chris

[Firestar]

Yes, I can get CF sheet and prepreg, but the cheapest place is ebay, from china.
As you say, you can cover carbon matting with polyester resin, but what you get is polyester covered carbon fibre mat, which isn't the same thing at all.
It would also be very heavy, as most of the weight would be resin anyway, so in effect you'd get a very expensive fibreglass box.

You'd also get a much lower strength composite, especially if you used the unidirectional stuff without laying it up at 90 degrees to itself, as it has no strength at all when you bend it in line with the fibre.
May be ok to repair a boat, but I wouldn't fancy bumping into anything with it (or chucking it in and out of a van as the case may be).

If you wanted to go that way, you'd be better (and cheaper) using a nice, drapeable woven glass fibre with pigment in it, with a transparent gelcoat.
If you laid it up on a glass surface you'd get a nice, mirror shiny black woven finish which would look as good as the carbon but have the advantage of being much cheaper, and be just as strong.

[Firestar]

Come to think of it, I've used Hemp herringbone fabric,as biocomposites are all the rage at the moment.
What could be more cool than a cab made from dope?
And it looks lovely into the bargain, as well as attracting all the environmentally friendly hippie groupie types.

[Badfinger]

I've worked on and off in the family business, where CF laminates were layed by hand, with epoxy, on a regular basis. Some was vacuum infused also, but most was by hand, with results that certainly seemed to be good enough for a fair cross-section of Canadian government agencies and Companies. Including hulls for off-shore deep-V racing boats.

So please. I'm certainly not an expert, but I worked for people who were, and are. CF can most certainly be layed by hand, and while of course not gaining the same maximum benefits of auto-claved vacuum-infused pre-pegs, it still can be done very effectively, with resins of all kinds, and with the majority of the benefits that CF has to offer, stiffness, strength, and light weight.

[Badfinger]

Bad, thanks for clarifying for me. The other post looked as if you had a strong opinion about what you "thought" it would sound like without actually doing it yourself.

And I have to agree with you on the DIY aspect. I own several books that show several methods of doing Carbon fibre at home. They are not the laser cut, pre-preg, CNC epoxy molds, autoclave cured methods that Formula 1 teams use, but from the pictures that accompany the text, you can get some VERY good results if you are set up correctly, know your stuff, and are well prepared with materials and ventillation.

Maybe the new guy that posted on here has a good source to purchase the CF since he is in the"Industry"? I would llike to get a roll of some herringbone to mess around with!

Chris

If you are in the US, and want to work with small amounts, I would suggest this company;
http://www.fibreglast.com/

I've dealt with them extensively while I was in the US and found them to be reliable and knowledgeable.
Their learning center is a good place to spend some time if you have an interest in this.

[Badfinger]

Bad, thanks for clarifying for me. The other post looked as if you had a strong opinion about what you "thought" it would sound like without actually doing it yourself.

Chris

I maybe could have been more clear also.
I tried a lot of crazy, and not so crazy things over the years, since I had access to tools and materials in both metalworking and composite construction, I've been a weldor as a fall-back to my music since working summers in a fab shop when I was in Junior High.

I didn't want to discourage anybody from trying stuff, and even though my personal preferance for guitar cabs now is pine, I was just trying to point out that composite construction can create things that are VERY different in response to what we normally use for cabs, both for instruments, and pa. Some good, some not so good, and a lot will really just depend on personal taste.

My hackles get up when folks start saying "you can't do that" simply because that's what they've been told by somebody else, or by narrow experience.
If people stop trying new things, nothing new will come about.

Startgeezer was right about one thing, CF is not to taken lightly. THe particulate from it is bad, bad, bad in a lot of ways.
The resins, polyester, epoxy, or otherwise, is bad too.
Safety will have to be taken VERY seriously.

But outside of that, go for it. I had an approach of my own, time constraints, money constraints, and my way, of course, is not the only way. Far from it.
There certainly is room for lightweight cabinets, as long as you can make them sound good. I've hauled Plexi heads and 4X12's. Even an original 18watt 2X12 can hurt ya if you're tired and you've schlepped it in and out of the back seat of the car one to many times.

Right now I'm playing with aluminum, simply because I can, no other reason. have no idea if it'll make a decent sounding cab or not.... is suspect it might sound ringy or wierd... but I don't KNOW.
So what the hell.... won't know till I try it will I ?

In any case, I've talked as much as I care too on the subject.
Giv'er folks, have fun, be safe, and who knows what you'll come up with?

Randal

[Firestar]

I'm not arguing about it, even though there's no such thing as a lightweight hand layup, only one thats light in comparison to other hand layups. CF density is about 2, glass fibre about 2.5, so on a box the size of a cab the weight saving wouldn't be worth bothering with.
Done by hand, the resin would be 60% of the weight anyway, which is where the press or autoclave comes in, as the fibre to resin ratio is much higher, saving a load of the weight.

If someone wants to spend a fortune on a box that stays shiny for 5 mins and charges up like a capacitor every time it's shoved across a carpet just so they can say it's got carbon fibres in it, it's fine by me.

I'm simply saying that personally I wouldn't bother, I'd prefer to have one that attracted hippie birds rather than static, that way all the shocking stuff would happen backstage rather than on it.

[Cknopp]

I think that if you do a bit of research on Carbon Fibre in motorsport, the conductivity issues have been figured out since the early 80's. Also, if there are no wires directly attached to the cabinet, and there are no fibres exposed, it would be rather inert as well.

Also, Carbon Fibre is only expensive if you don't know where to look. I have done some research on purchasing, and layup, and I don't think that a good CF cabinet would cost much more than a Tolex shrouded, finger/dovetail jointed birch plywood cabinet. Actually, once you do the original mold, you could actually produce them for significantly less labor than wood ones.

The real key is finding speakers that are light enough to make it worthwhile... If you lighten the cabinet by 20 pounds, but still use heavy speakers, you aren't really accomplishing much.

Chris

[Spongebob]

An internet customer of mine tells me he is (has) built a carbon fibre cab of a "futuristic" design 18 Watt amp. Well actually, from what I understand, it's a combination of wood & CF. Also that CF is part of his trade. I've asked for a photo but not received one yet.

It seems that a problem he is having is that each time he touches the cabinet he gets a very big static shock!

I've suggested he join this group, so if he has and is reading this, perhaps he will give us all some more detail?

[krx]

It seems that a problem he is having is that each time he touches the cabinet he gets a very big static shock!

Ouch! Gotta ground that cabinet, I'd think. Carbon fiber is conductive.

[zaphod_phil]

Even with all that resin holding the fibres together....?