Scumback vs. Celestion

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Scumback vs. Celestion

Post by Animal »

Im building not only a new amp, first one, but looking to remove the celestial G12T75 (I think thats there model number) out of my Marshall JCM 2000 series 1960 slanted 4X12 cab. I have learned that not only was the JCM 2000 a piece of junk, along with its 4X12 cabinet, but in my basement, 100 watts is insane. Since, I have desired a lower watt amp, the 18 watt, something I can push a lot more than the 100 Watt for real power tube tone at much lower bedroom levels. I also need a set of speakers that will work well with this new amp (GDS). I am leaning to where most of the reviews point which is the celestions or the scumbacks. I am counting on those with all the experience I am lacking.
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by JMPGuitars »

Animal wrote:Im building not only a new amp, first one, but looking to remove the celestial G12T75 (I think thats there model number) out of my Marshall JCM 2000 series 1960 slanted 4X12 cab. I have learned that not only was the JCM 2000 a piece of junk, along with its 4X12 cabinet, but in my basement, 100 watts is insane. Since, I have desired a lower watt amp, the 18 watt, something I can push a lot more than the 100 Watt for real power tube tone at much lower bedroom levels. I also need a set of speakers that will work well with this new amp (GDS). I am leaning to where most of the reviews point which is the celestians or the scumbacks. I am counting on those with all the experience I am lacking.
No matter what anybody tells you, you need to keep three things in mind. 1. Certain speakers work with certain builds better than others. 2. Sensitivity of a speaker affects how loud the amp is, so I would suggest something less than 100db sensitivity. 3. Speakers are very subjective, and some speakers suit better styles better than others. So you should also mention the type of music you like.

...All that being said, I personally like the Scumback M75 better than anything I've ever heard from Celestion. I spoke with the owner of Scumback, and he told me he likes the BlackBack M75-LD even better, so that will be the next speaker I order from them. However, I did try a Weber Texas 10" Ceramic speaker, that I thought sounded amazing with my Lite EF86 build. I also have a Tone Tubby 40/40 with a hemp cone I plan on trying out.

So get lots of opinions, and experiment before you buy more than one of anything. The Scumback I mentioned that I want to try, is a 97db sensitivity speaker, so it should be quieter than some of my other speakers at 100db sensitivity. It doesn't sound like a big difference, but it is. Some people like Alnico better, I prefer the ceramics. It's all personal taste, no matter what anybody tells you.

Good luck with your hunt. :)

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by Animal »

Im headed to the Scumback site now. From your reply, it seems as if I want to seek out a speaker with a lower db output. Makes perfect sense. This is why I am here, to learn from those who know. In the end, this amp and speaker cab are going to be my "classic rock-blues" rig. Ill save my Soldano SL) and Soldnao 2x12 (eminence legend) for all my tightly focused metal and various solo work.

Moving into an adult life, getting married, and playing out of the finished basement with full time wife, lol, puts a damper on my volume levels which as we all know, sends me BACK, to rebuild all my amps for that amazing tone at very low volumes.

To answer your question as to what style of music im preferring to play with this cab (speaker selection), it will be that 60s crunchy-bluesy spectrum. Not what im used to playing on with the Soldano and my POS JCM2000 which im using as a clean channel only.
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

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No audio samples available for the Black Back BM75-LD, Darn... If you can find one please send it my way.
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by JMPGuitars »

Animal wrote:No audio samples available for the Black Back BM75-LD, Darn... If you can find one please send it my way.
This video clip has a decent sampling of most of them, including the BM75-LD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6U30BV2 ... eEQ6Oo8OZw

Definitely worth the watch.
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

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honestly too much to chose from. The recording, room, ect all have a part in the sound your ears are hearing so, with that being said, I think ill just pick a decent speaker and make it mine. I dont want to be too critical here although I know everything has an effect on tone. Just think any speaker is better than my celestian G12T75s
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by JMPGuitars »

Animal wrote:honestly too much to chose from. The recording, room, ect all have a part in the sound your ears are hearing so, with that being said, I think ill just pick a decent speaker and make it mine. I dont want to be too critical here although I know everything has an effect on tone. Just think any speaker is better than my celestian G12T75s
That's definitely true. That demo is only good to make an even comparison between the speakers they demoed. You would want to see somebody else do a comparison between the different brands also.

This is decent demo of the M75 vs a Greenback. Tell me what you think: http://youtu.be/SYuwX3BxKqM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by Animal »

I listened to the video up until about 5:30 and my opinion is the SB seemed to be more of a open and articulated tone whereas the GB were a little on the compressed, less miss and creamy, rounded kind of tone. The actual guitar playing was a little hard to listen too with an awful buzz (set up) but thats ok. Whats the deal with those expensive Skumnicos? man they are an additional $100.

Thanks for the video link.
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by JMPGuitars »

Animal wrote:I listened to the video up until about 5:30 and my opinion is the SB seemed to be more of a open and articulated tone whereas the GB were a little on the compressed, less miss and creamy, rounded kind of tone. The actual guitar playing was a little hard to listen too with an awful buzz (set up) but thats ok. Whats the deal with those expensive Skumnicos? man they are an additional $100.

Thanks for the video link.
Yeah, the guy isn't the best player in the world either, but he's not bad. It's funny that you cut it off early, the last few minutes are the best comparison. I thought the Scumback sounded better on everything except the higher gain with the strat, BUT the Celestion is 25Watt, and the Scumback is 65Watt, so the Scumback will break up less anyway. Like I said tho, it's all very subjective.

Some people swear by alnico, I've played through a lot of speakers, including some expensive alnicos like the $350 ASW ELegantes, Celestion Blue/Gold, etc... and I've always preferred ceramics. It is a personal taste thing, so you need to try some different things out and form your own opinion.
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by CurtissRobin »

Keep in mind, as well, that 18 watts isn't all that much quieter than 100 watts. It'll be about 63% as loud. If you're looking to limit the loud then burrow through the threads here that discuss attenuators.

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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by Animal »

I had this fear and youre right. Again, whats the accomplishment on spending $800 if I still have a problem with volume. My Soldano is a GREAT amp and maybe I should just attenuate it and call it a day. Just really stoked about building an amp. I was eyeballing a few 1 watt or 5 watt amps but im dying for that marshall plexi tone of the 60s. Suhr amps has that london power scaling. I wonder if I could just spend another %250 and install a London power scale. I have their site. Apparently they are colorless in attenuation, if thats possible.
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by JMPGuitars »

Animal wrote:I had this fear and youre right. Again, whats the accomplishment on spending $800 if I still have a problem with volume. My Soldano is a GREAT amp and maybe I should just attenuate it and call it a day. Just really stoked about building an amp. I was eyeballing a few 1 watt or 5 watt amps but im dying for that marshall plexi tone of the 60s. Suhr amps has that london power scaling. I wonder if I could just spend another %250 and install a London power scale. I have their site. Apparently they are colorless in attenuation, if thats possible.
That volume comparison is potential though, that's why you need a lower sensitivity speaker to cut the volume before doing anything with attenuation or a VVR circuit. There are a lot of ways to manage the sound, one of them is to not use a 4x12. :)
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by Animal »

Ill be searching for the best speaker to suit my needs. Low output, quality, something to compliment an open articulate response. Maybe the Skumback M series.
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by Animal »

This may come as a stupid question but why would using a 4x12 cab make the colume louder. I mean I understand 4 speakers is more than 2 speakers which is more than 1 speaker but, isnt 4 speakers giving a bigger sound, not necessarily louder. Again, I ask because I do not know but wish to learn.
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by JMPGuitars »

Animal wrote:This may come as a stupid question but why would using a 4x12 cab make the colume louder. I mean I understand 4 speakers is more than 2 speakers which is more than 1 speaker but, isnt 4 speakers giving a bigger sound, not necessarily louder. Again, I ask because I do not know but wish to learn.
It's pushing more air, and more area pushing the sound. I'm sure somebody else here could give you a more technical explanation, but from what I know, that sums it up. ;)
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestian

Post by brewdude »

Have you looked at WGS? I have 2 different models.

The first is a V30 clone that was stupidly affordable when they first started offering speakers for sale. The prices soon went up but they are still affordable.

The second is an G12-65 clone. I have this speaker in a 1x12 Dumble style cabinet with an oval port in the back. I am very happy with this one.

WGS has many models to choose from. They are worth checking out.
http://wgs4.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestion

Post by zaphod_phil »

First of all Marshall 18W type amps, tend to be a little on the bright side, due to their EL84 power tubes. So try to avoid speakers that are bright or have a strong top end, such as Celestion V30s (unless they're vintage Made in England ones), Celestion G12T-75s, or modern Celestion Alnico Blues. The combination with an 18W can be hard on your ears, if you haven't already destroyed your high-frequency hearing. :lol:

Celestion is the base-line standard for all Marshall amps Their Greenbacks are a classic speaker in the world of classic and hard rock. GBs can however suffer from woofy low end, especially in open-back cabs. Modern Celestion GBs can be a little harsh until they're well broken in. The Celestion G12H-30 is a like a GB with a bigger, tighter low end, due to the huge magnet, which also gives it 100dB/W efficiency compared with the GB's 97dB. Hendrix used G12H-30s with the 55Hz bass cone, and they also come with a 75Hz lead cone. These days I'm quite liking the G12-65, which is somewhat like a Greenback in tone, but has a tighter low-end, can handle higher power levels, and has some nice warm mids, which complements the 18W tone. Celestion has also recently launched a G12M-65, which is supposedly a 65W version of a Greenback. The Alnico Gold 50W is also said to sound smoother than the Alnico Blue, although I've not heard one in real life. There's a lot of threads in this section about speaker choices and combinations.

One thing which is important to understand is that many of the great famous Celestion speakers of the past used various cones made by Pulsonic - that is until Pulsonic's factory burned down. Modern Celestions therefore don't have Pulsonic cones, and will never have quite the same tone as their vintage equivalents, even after a lot of playing. I read an interesting article little while back about how Ken Fischer had found that the old cones had longer fibres than the modern ones, and maybe he was onto something there.

Modern clone manufacturers, such as Scumback and WGS have now come into the market and seem to have figured out how to replicate or at least get real close to the tone of the vintage Pulsonic-coned Celestions. So there's a huge argument now for going with those instead.
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestion

Post by Animal »

Honestly this amazes me how much guitar criteria, amp criteria and now speaker criteria, there really is involved with the overall tone. I am going to be playing this new 18 watt GDS amp through my current JCM 200 1960 4x12 cabinet loaded with those celestian g12-t75 speakers. I really have to admit the sound of both my Soldano and JCM 2000 are quite harsh and trebly through this cabinet. What can I do to execute the best tone from this GDS 18 watt amp in regards to my 4x12 cab. Should I replace all 4 speakers, should I bypass the 4x12 and buy a 2x12, and if so, for what reason. Help me out here guys. I am playing alone in my basement and really do NOT want loud volumes at all. I do however, want to hang with the drums, totally acoustic, if I have someone over to jam with. I just want the best tone I can get. If its financially too much right now, ill make a plan and approach it slowly and steadily. Thanks.

My tone. well, I dont have one type of tone or style. I do like heavy stuff, I do love organic bluesy crunch, I love jazz, rock and roll, and a little riffy metal. I think at the moment I am after a very organic crunchy tone that can provide a creamy mild gain solo tone as well. I do have the Soldano so I have half of my tone spoken for. Just need to attenuate the volume A LOT... The Soldano is paired with a Soldano 2x12 open back cabinet loaded with Eminence Legends.
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestion

Post by brewdude »

This is a very subjective subject.

I recommend a 1x12 cabinet. I prefer open back--I especially like the oval ported open back on the Dumble style cabs.

I also recommend a relatively low efficiency speaker. Personally I like the G12-65. The WGS version is only $69.00 http://wgs4.com/content/et65" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also have played my 18 watt through a friends 2x10 Mesa Boogie cab that sounded great with that amp.

Personally I think 4x12 cabs are for posing like a rock star, especially in a basement--No offense intended.
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Re: Scumback vs. Celestion

Post by Animal »

No offense taken I agree 100%. When I started plying it was the guitar I saved for and the guitar I learned inside and out. At one point I finally realized a tube amp was the way to go and a big expensive cabinet was def gonna look good and I'd magically be good at playing because I had awesome gear. Well later in life I learnd what real tone was and unfortunetly moved into my first house and got married. I am learning and finally developing and understanding of the entire signal path. I failed to mention that I've spent the last12 years building and designing electric guitars so there's a reason I'm not so savy with amps and speakers. I am looking for a site to explain what makes sense. There must be some basic wrongs and rights when designing a rig based on venue. My venue is low volume basement tone. I expectthat a big full tone is still achievable. Some say to go with a 12 inch single speaker cabinet but man that does nothing for a full sound and good bass response I am not a solo scaling Joe satriani, I wish I was, so I need not only creamy hi end and articulate miss but thick tight asskicking bass. What's the issue if I load my 4x12 cab with great speakers and run this 18 watt what will I benefit from a single 12 inch. Just curious.
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