Scumback vs. Celestion

[brewdude]

Have you looked at WGS? I have 2 different models.

The first is a V30 clone that was stupidly affordable when they first started offering speakers for sale. The prices soon went up but they are still affordable.

The second is an G12-65 clone. I have this speaker in a 1x12 Dumble style cabinet with an oval port in the back. I am very happy with this one.

WGS has many models to choose from. They are worth checking out.
http://wgs4.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[zaphod_phil]

First of all Marshall 18W type amps, tend to be a little on the bright side, due to their EL84 power tubes. So try to avoid speakers that are bright or have a strong top end, such as Celestion V30s (unless they're vintage Made in England ones), Celestion G12T-75s, or modern Celestion Alnico Blues. The combination with an 18W can be hard on your ears, if you haven't already destroyed your high-frequency hearing.

Celestion is the base-line standard for all Marshall amps Their Greenbacks are a classic speaker in the world of classic and hard rock. GBs can however suffer from woofy low end, especially in open-back cabs. Modern Celestion GBs can be a little harsh until they're well broken in. The Celestion G12H-30 is a like a GB with a bigger, tighter low end, due to the huge magnet, which also gives it 100dB/W efficiency compared with the GB's 97dB. Hendrix used G12H-30s with the 55Hz bass cone, and they also come with a 75Hz lead cone. These days I'm quite liking the G12-65, which is somewhat like a Greenback in tone, but has a tighter low-end, can handle higher power levels, and has some nice warm mids, which complements the 18W tone. Celestion has also recently launched a G12M-65, which is supposedly a 65W version of a Greenback. The Alnico Gold 50W is also said to sound smoother than the Alnico Blue, although I've not heard one in real life. There's a lot of threads in this section about speaker choices and combinations.

One thing which is important to understand is that many of the great famous Celestion speakers of the past used various cones made by Pulsonic - that is until Pulsonic's factory burned down. Modern Celestions therefore don't have Pulsonic cones, and will never have quite the same tone as their vintage equivalents, even after a lot of playing. I read an interesting article little while back about how Ken Fischer had found that the old cones had longer fibres than the modern ones, and maybe he was onto something there.

Modern clone manufacturers, such as Scumback and WGS have now come into the market and seem to have figured out how to replicate or at least get real close to the tone of the vintage Pulsonic-coned Celestions. So there's a huge argument now for going with those instead.

[Animal]

Honestly this amazes me how much guitar criteria, amp criteria and now speaker criteria, there really is involved with the overall tone. I am going to be playing this new 18 watt GDS amp through my current JCM 200 1960 4x12 cabinet loaded with those celestian g12-t75 speakers. I really have to admit the sound of both my Soldano and JCM 2000 are quite harsh and trebly through this cabinet. What can I do to execute the best tone from this GDS 18 watt amp in regards to my 4x12 cab. Should I replace all 4 speakers, should I bypass the 4x12 and buy a 2x12, and if so, for what reason. Help me out here guys. I am playing alone in my basement and really do NOT want loud volumes at all. I do however, want to hang with the drums, totally acoustic, if I have someone over to jam with. I just want the best tone I can get. If its financially too much right now, ill make a plan and approach it slowly and steadily. Thanks.

My tone. well, I dont have one type of tone or style. I do like heavy stuff, I do love organic bluesy crunch, I love jazz, rock and roll, and a little riffy metal. I think at the moment I am after a very organic crunchy tone that can provide a creamy mild gain solo tone as well. I do have the Soldano so I have half of my tone spoken for. Just need to attenuate the volume A LOT... The Soldano is paired with a Soldano 2x12 open back cabinet loaded with Eminence Legends.

[brewdude]

This is a very subjective subject.

I recommend a 1x12 cabinet. I prefer open back--I especially like the oval ported open back on the Dumble style cabs.

I also recommend a relatively low efficiency speaker. Personally I like the G12-65. The WGS version is only $69.00 http://wgs4.com/content/et65" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also have played my 18 watt through a friends 2x10 Mesa Boogie cab that sounded great with that amp.

Personally I think 4x12 cabs are for posing like a rock star, especially in a basement--No offense intended.

[Animal]

No offense taken I agree 100%. When I started plying it was the guitar I saved for and the guitar I learned inside and out. At one point I finally realized a tube amp was the way to go and a big expensive cabinet was def gonna look good and I'd magically be good at playing because I had awesome gear. Well later in life I learnd what real tone was and unfortunetly moved into my first house and got married. I am learning and finally developing and understanding of the entire signal path. I failed to mention that I've spent the last12 years building and designing electric guitars so there's a reason I'm not so savy with amps and speakers. I am looking for a site to explain what makes sense. There must be some basic wrongs and rights when designing a rig based on venue. My venue is low volume basement tone. I expectthat a big full tone is still achievable. Some say to go with a 12 inch single speaker cabinet but man that does nothing for a full sound and good bass response I am not a solo scaling Joe satriani, I wish I was, so I need not only creamy hi end and articulate miss but thick tight asskicking bass. What's the issue if I load my 4x12 cab with great speakers and run this 18 watt what will I benefit from a single 12 inch. Just curious.

[JMPGuitars]

No offense taken I agree 100%. When I started plying it was the guitar I saved for and the guitar I learned inside and out. At one point I finally realized a tube amp was the way to go and a big expensive cabinet was def gonna look good and I'd magically be good at playing because I had awesome gear. Well later in life I learnd what real tone was and unfortunetly moved into my first house and got married. I am learning and finally developing and understanding of the entire signal path. I failed to mention that I've spent the last12 years building and designing electric guitars so there's a reason I'm not so savy with amps and speakers. I am looking for a site to explain what makes sense. There must be some basic wrongs and rights when designing a rig based on venue. My venue is low volume basement tone. I expectthat a big full tone is still achievable. Some say to go with a 12 inch single speaker cabinet but man that does nothing for a full sound and good bass response I am not a solo scaling Joe satriani, I wish I was, so I need not only creamy hi end and articulate miss but thick tight asskicking bass. What's the issue if I load my 4x12 cab with great speakers and run this 18 watt what will I benefit from a single 12 inch. Just curious.

I would pick between the RIGHT 1x12 or a 2x10 or MAYBE a 2x12, but go to the store and play a few. You can get a full sound from a 1x12, but the cabinet has to be big enough if you want a bigger sound, or designed/tuned for the sound you want.

If you think you can't get full sound out of a 1x12, you're playing the wrong speaker/cab/amp combination. I'm playing a Scumback M75 in a Mesa 1x12 closed-back cab, and I keep the bass knob very low on the amps I put through it. The M75 is only 97db sensitivity, so it's a lot quieter than the EVM12L (100db sensitivity) in my 18W combo. I'm going to build a smaller 18W-EF86 combo with a 10" Weber Texas ceramic. I already tried that setup together, and it sounds killer.

[Daviedawg]

I play at home using a 2x10 which has Celestion G10 Vintage 60 watts in a home built cab with some variable rear venting. The ones installed I bought second hand. They are maybe 20 years old but had hardly been used until a year ago. The current spec says 97dB. I expect these are the same so are sort of mid efficiency. Current price is about £60 each.
The bass is strong but well controlled, mids are quite strong and highs are crisp. Paired up you get a good volume but not overly loud. But remember that this is not at gigging levels but at neighbour friendly ones with VVR.
This is a reasonable option which is different from the other cabs you have. It works well with the lower wattage amps I have as well as the 18 watt.

Dd

[Animal]

Thank you both for the reply and Information. It can't hurt to build a cab and throw a speaker or two in it. If anything else, Ill have a variety in speaker cabs which enables more tonal options. I can build the cab no problem in my shop and honestly two speakers aren't going to break the bank. I think this is a better idea than using the Marshall jcm 2000 cab with celestian G12-T75 speakers. But who doesnt like looking at a Marshall half stack. Makes my studio look awesome
At this point its a showdown between the following speaker companies , scumback,weber and celestian. I'd like to try something other than celestian so perhaps scumbacks it is. I presume weber and SB are both excellent speakers. For this build I'm going to take all the advise and buy  low watt , low db output, set of 12s. Ill still need to attenuate to push this amp at tollerable levels I'm sure

[brewdude]

As for attenuation, I recommend you consider installing a VVR.

[JMPGuitars]

Thank you both for the reply and Information. It can't hurt to build a cab and throw a speaker or two in it. If anything else, Ill have a variety in speaker cabs which enables more tonal options. I can build the cab no problem in my shop and honestly two speakers aren't going to break the bank. I think this is a better idea than using the Marshall jcm 2000 cab with celestian G12-T75 speakers. But who doesnt like looking at a Marshall half stack. Makes my studio look awesome
At this point its a showdown between the following speaker companies , scumback,weber and celestian. I'd like to try something other than celestian so perhaps scumbacks it is. I presume weber and SB are both excellent speakers. For this build I'm going to take all the advise and buy  low watt , low db output, set of 12s. Ill still need to attenuate to push this amp at tollerable levels I'm sure

Sounds like a good plan. From what I've read, Scumbacks in general are much more popular than the Weber speakers, but I really like the Texas 10 I mentioned (though maybe not as much as the M75 Scumback), so who knows. Back to the personal taste thing. Make sure you post some photos in the gallery after you build it!

[Animal]

I think I will spend some time and create my user profile. I have yet to purchase the 18 watt GDS amp kit but hopefully I will soon. I will be choosing the 2/C over the single channel. Why not spend the additional $100 and get vibrato and a second channel. As for the speakers, I think lll try the Scumback equivalent to the original greenbacks in a 20 Watt spec and hopefully LESS db output. Then again the blackback BM65-LD was a favorite for the gentleman you mentioned so I may just pick one of those. I guess ill purchase some good birch laminated plywood and go to town. Ill grab some supplies from Mojo and complete the build. Wish I could have a Name Badge made in my own name. Funny thing is, I have several pearl and abalone inlays, custom made by a man overseas which illustrate my last name in all my guitar builds. Now I need to find a larger size name badge for my amp with my last name. Maybe I can carve something and make a mold, then use a plastic injection colored white to make my own badges. Not hard to do. hmmmmm

[JMPGuitars]

I think I will spend some time and create my user profile. I have yet to purchase the 18 watt GDS amp kit but hopefully I will soon. I will be choosing the 2/C over the single channel. Why not spend the additional $100 and get vibrato and a second channel. As for the speakers, I think lll try the Scumback equivalent to the original greenbacks in a 20 Watt spec and hopefully LESS db output. Then again the blackback BM65-LD was a favorite for the gentleman you mentioned so I may just pick one of those. I guess ill purchase some good birch laminated plywood and go to town. Ill grab some supplies from Mojo and complete the build. Wish I could have a Name Badge made in my own name. Funny thing is, I have several pearl and abalone inlays, custom made by a man overseas which illustrate my last name in all my guitar builds. Now I need to find a larger size name badge for my amp with my last name. Maybe I can carve something and make a mold, then use a plastic injection colored white to make my own badges. Not hard to do. hmmmmm

BNPLasers.com is awesome for nameplates, control panels, etc... You can design whatever you want and send it to them to make on the different materials they offer. Their customer service is FANTASTIC also.

[Animal]

Dooooooood. Youre the best. I had NO IDEA this company or process even existed. How super cool is that !

[JMPGuitars]

Dooooooood. Youre the best. I had NO IDEA this company or process even existed. How super cool is that !

Ha! They're awesome! It's wicked cool. I'm a graphic/web design as my day job, and they can do almost anything I can think of. So far I've been fairly normalish with the designs (my graffiti logo aside), but I will eventually send them something wacky to see how it comes out. Check out my build of my SL2ish amp, those faceplates are from them.

[katopan]

Plenty of options as has been said. But also a 1x12 with a loud speaker will still keep up with an acoustic hard hitting drummer. And the bottom end response is all about cab design, rather than how many drivers are installed.

[Animal]

I think I just hate this Marshall cabinet. Sounds like crap as is. Used to love the soldano open back 2x12 maybe ill hook it back up.

[AC Cobra]

Its good to see another guitar builder here. Sounds like you are also in a similar as me as far as family goes. If you want bass you need a sealed cab, and from my experance with subs more volume to the enclosure will give deeper bass. I personally prefer a open back cabs as they give more complex midrange, and more midrange volume. Problem with a open back is it is lacking bottom end for palm muting. Im planing on going with 1 open back and 1 closed 12, probably with diffrent voiced speakers.
I think I may know who you got your inlays from, but i would say dont do shell for the logo on the amp, i think at the size required it wouldnt look that good. And laminated sheets are really expencive. I was thinking about engraving plexi and pointing white led's through it. The other option sounds great as well and would look really pro.
Did you ever concider doing the cab out of hardwood? Thats what im thinking about, although im more worried about tone at this point as im prety sure i can make it look good.
The vvr sounds like a good option, and I plan on using it on my build. I also wonder is switchable negitive feedback would help get the cleans louder when playing with a drummer. Feedback from someone with experence on this would be appreciated.
Enjoy the project and the tone!!

[BackwoodsJoe]

I've been using WGS speakers lately. They sound just as good for a third of the price!