36 watt Virgin with some prebuild questions

[JohnnyCrash]

Alright, I'm giving into the 36 watt dark side.

Seeing as how this freak was born here, I figured this is the place for info.

1. I saw a recent post about some revisions. Were could I get the newly revised layout? Is there a layout with the half power switch on it?

2. I got my board from Turretboards.com and will be ordering the chassis+faceplates from Ceriatone... any mounting issues?

3. I'll be building it piecemeal, so I will not be using Ceriatone's transformers (shipping is by weight and sucks overseas). Any recommendations on AWESOME transformers? Brand and model?

4. What's the "Plexi mod" all about. Any layout links for this?

I'll be installing a Marshall rotary impedance switch on mine... using the three output holes for a half-power switch, the ohm knob, and the output jack.

[Chubsman]

1. Latest 36w: http://www.18watt.com/storage/36watt.png
EDIT:1/2 power switch: http://www.18watt.com/files/36w_half_power.jpg


2. Mounting issues: Decide if you want stand-up or laydown transformers and specify it to Nik @ ceriatone when ordering the chassis as the laydown version will have a big square cut out.

3. Transformers : Heyboer

Power transformer : HTS-7042 bumped up to 290-0-290 stand up $80
Output transformer: HTS-7013-1 $75
Choke: HTS-7040

4. Plexi is a person (Richie) he pretty much designed the amp, and the latest version (See #1) has these mods.

If you are installing a rotary impedance selector, you will have issues with Niks chassis and rear plate as it is designed with 3 jacks not a selector...

[JohnnyCrash]

1. Latest 36w: http://www.18watt.com/storage/36watt.png
EDIT:1/2 power switch: http://www.18watt.com/files/36w_half_power.jpg


2. Mounting issues: Decide if you want stand-up or laydown transformers and specify it to Nik @ ceriatone when ordering the chassis as the laydown version will have a big square cut out.

3. Transformers : Heyboer

Power transformer : HTS-7042 bumped up to 290-0-290 stand up $80
Output transformer: HTS-7013-1 $75
Choke: HTS-7040

4. Plexi is a person (Richie) he pretty much designed the amp, and the latest version (See #1) has these mods.

If you are installing a rotary impedance selector, you will have issues with Niks chassis and rear plate as it is designed with 3 jacks not a selector...

I know who Plexi is... the 36 is his baby.

I meant the "Plexi Mod"... how does he "mod" his own semi-design? "Pretty much designed" means he took the classic 18 and doubled it... ergo the Ceriatone's back panel script showing "RP" for Richie "Plexi"... at least I hope that's what it stands for... I can think of much worse RPs.

I was left with the impression there was a "Plexi" (as in the actual Marshall amp) MOD. Wouldn't a 36w already be a "mod" of an 18 watter?

I know the back of the chassis has the standard jack holes drilled... I've got tools of my own... trust me, I'll get the rotary switch to fit

I've never built from a kit yet. I've drilled/cut ALL my own chassis' myself. Widening out a jack hole is no problem for me on the chassis -OR- faceplate.

So my question is... what does "has these mods" mean... what particular mods are you talking about?

As far as cutouts, it looked like the square hole "laydown" was all Ceriatone offered (is this right?)... I guess I'd prefer that anyways, as in my opinion the PT seems to balance it's weight better this way. Either way, I don't care how it sits, as long as the PT gives me my juice.

I'd build a JTM45, but a 5881 is pretty much a 6L6 and I've already got that ground covered... I'm looking for a EL84 Vox-ish/Marshall amp, this go around.

SO
Why Heyboer, and have you tried other PT/OTs to compare it to? I am NOT going with Ceriatone's transformer offerings... I'm looking for premium alternatives... Mercury, etc... I know you freaks have tried a great variety of trannies and I'd like to know the nuances of each

[krash]

Alright, I'm giving into the 36 watt dark side.

Seeing as how this freak was born here, I figured this is the place for info.

1. I saw a recent post about some revisions. Were could I get the newly revised layout? Is there a layout with the half power switch on it?

Which half-power switch version? There is more than one half-power implementation. I haven't seen a Richie-36W layout with a half-power switch.

2. I got my board from Turretboards.com and will be ordering the chassis+faceplates from Ceriatone... any mounting issues?

I presume you already have the board? I found that the 36W board from turretboards.com that I ordered did not match the Richie TMB/36W layout as advertised. It required a fair amount of adjustment and improvisation. Also you have to drill the mounting holes in the turret board, presumably to match the chassis.

3. I'll be building it piecemeal, so I will not be using Ceriatone's transformers (shipping is by weight and sucks overseas). Any recommendations on AWESOME transformers? Brand and model?

I dunno about 36W transformer flavors but I just swapped a GDS tab-type Hyboer into my 18W in place of the EMC that was in there and the difference is pretty much night and day. If the Hyboer 36W sounds this good, then it's the right thing for sure.

[NitroLiq]

1. The half-power switch isn't in any layout. It's something Nik (ceriatone) and Loverocker have been pursuing. You can read more in Loverocker's thread here:

http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?name= ... ic&t=10473

2. Regarding parts matching up, you have to tell Nik which layout you're working from since he has his own. He can make the appropriate chassis. I just checked my board (which has mounting holes already as I had asked Ken to drill them) and it lines up with the holes in the chassis I bought from Nik.

3. Order the Trannies straight from Heyboer (M6 laminate)...the models Chubsman mentioned earlier.

4. Last note, There aren't any real "plexi mods"...Richie just tweaks things as he sees fit for different guitars (strat, les paul) and the usual things...his own proprietary mojo.

[JohnnyCrash]

Thanks Chubsman, krash, and NitroLiq!

I had Ken leave off the mounting holes on my 5D8 Twin build... I wasn't sure where I was going to put them until I had the trannies and chassis in front of me... plus I had to trim his board, since it was a tight fit.

I'll probably just have him leave them off this one too.

I'll probably end up on the Heyboer's since I always hear good things about them everywhere.

I just read a thread somewhere on here about a Plexi Mod... I'll see if I can dig it up... although, I have been hitting the bottle hard and staying up late, so maybe I did read wrong... my gal graduated from college this weekend

Finally... is there a BOM or Parts List anywhere? Not a huge deal since I can simply scratch them off the schem/layout as I place them on an order form... but it'd be nice.

I always went with Mallory's... but this go around I think I'll go with the Orange Drops for a change of scenery (I'm in the "caps are caps" camp).

Thanks guys!

[Chubsman]

Yo Nitroliq...

(M6 laminate) what does this describe? The steel used?

[NitroLiq]

Chubs, yes, M6 is a higher grade of steel.

I always went with Mallory's... but this go around I think I'll go with the Orange Drops for a change of scenery (I'm in the "caps are caps" camp).

There is a difference between polyester and polypropolene caps. ODs are more Fender-ish...brighter...Mallories, sozo, mustards, etc are more Marshall...*shrug*...it's up to you but personally, I wouldn't want to install all the caps, find I don't like it, and have to replace everything.

No BOM for the 36.

[JohnnyCrash]

To get an honest and rational comparison is nearly impossible...

You'd have to swap each cap with the EXACT 100% same value... and since tolerances aren't 100% this would take a lot of grab-bagging and measuring... not to mention other variables involved with resoldering, flux, etc... I doubt most folks have done this to actually hear the difference.

I suspect a lot of the "difference" may also have been the value's tolerance playing into it to some degree.

Have you ever opened a SF Fender... only to see it chock full of the original caps... Mallorys? Well, I have - and they didn't sound very Marshall-ish to me

I've heard some folks say what you just have said, and then I've heard some folks claim the exact opposite!

"In theory" a lot of stuff sounds different, in reality the differences may be so small and indetectable it becomes a moot point left only for the academics.

I personally, have never heard a difference, so in my experience it's too small to notice.

Half of RnR has always been the chops, the other half showmanship and looks... on this build I'm going with Orange Drops because in an Alicia Silverstone "Clueless" kind of way - it'll just plain look cool. HAHA!

I wonder if somebody will ever search the forum with the phrase "Alicia Silverstone"!

[JohnnyCrash]

...*shrug*...it's up to you but personally, I wouldn't want to install all the caps, find I don't like it, and have to replace everything.

Are you kidding?

I've never even heard of anybody gutting their amp because they hated the caps!

Next amp you've got in your shop, do the following:

1. Find out what caps the customer seems to prefer. Most pros don't even know.

2. If the customer does have a preference, put in a completely different kind.

3. Let them fire it up and listen to their "sounds so good, I like those caps" comments... then watch the look on their face when you tell them what caps you really put in!

--

I know there's a difference between caps, between carbon comp and carbon film resistors, etc... but to say they can flavor an amp circuit so much for it to be trashed/gutted - that is just insane.

Now transformers on the other hand - that is something I personally have seen/heard make you want to start over from the ground up!

[NitroLiq]

You'd be surprised at what little things people gut their amps for. Maybe it's real...maybe it's hype but I've seen people swap out ODs for mallories...mallories for sozo....is there a massive difference? Maybe...maybe not. Or maybe it's just the whole is the sum of all its parts, you know? People have done taste tests in the past. *shrug* I'm not arguing with you and I'm not claiming to be an authority on any of this...I'm more of a player than a builder and am currently just building one amp...the 36. Build what you like and voice the amp how you like. You're the only one that needs to dig it. Folks have built stock 18s with ODs.

[JohnnyCrash]

You'd be surprised at what little things people gut their amps for. Maybe it's real...maybe it's hype but I've seen people swap out ODs for mallories...mallories for sozo....is there a massive difference? Maybe...maybe not. Or maybe it's just the whole is the sum of all its parts, you know? People have done taste tests in the past. *shrug* I'm not arguing with you and I'm not claiming to be an authority on any of this...I'm more of a player than a builder and am currently just building one amp...the 36. Build what you like and voice the amp how you like. You're the only one that needs to dig it. Folks have built stock 18s with ODs.

Yeah, it's like the pickup "quest". People tearing out a set of pickups a month HAHA! So much money wasted when they coulda been playing the damn thing...

I've recorded some sounds I was floored by... all on crap pickups, or old dying EL34s, cheap chinese mics, or other assorted weird junk... but on the other side of the coin, we always want consistently GOOD tone, so I totally hear ya.

I'm like you - I'm more of a player than builder... so as long as it sounds good, I'll be happy!

Thanks again NitroLiq!

[ur12]

I meant the "Plexi Mod"... how does he "mod" his own semi-design? "Pretty much designed" means he took the classic 18 and doubled it... ergo the Ceriatone's back panel script showing "RP" for Richie "Plexi"... at least I hope that's what it stands for... I can think of much worse RPs.

To start with your are confusing the guy Plexi/Richie with the amp Plexi. To set the record straight, the "Mod" was named for the guy Plexi and not the amp Plexi and dosent mean that the amp will sound like a Marshall Plexi.

Marshall started out cloning a Bassman. They changed a bunch of parts because they didn't have a reliable source for the same parts Fender used, They went to a EL34 instead of a 6L6 and then different transformers that gave the amp a totally different sound and made the design all their own. Richie spent countless hours for the last 5 years developing the 36 watt and to say it is a "Semi design" or Pretty Much Designed" is hogwash. You don't just throw two more tubes in an amp and make it work without going through a lot of trouble changing the layout, specing out new trannys, tweaking the circuits until you get something that is reliable and sounds good. The fact is that Marshall never made a 36watt amp or even a TMB version of the 18watt. Richie's 36watt has a tone stack lift and a NFB lift and he never used a 1/2 power switch. That was Nic's mod. Nic was also the one who put the RP on the back panel so maybe you should ask him what it means and why he put it there. Maybe a little more respect for some of the founders of this site might be in order.

I was left with the impression there was a "Plexi" (as in the actual Marshall amp) MOD. Wouldn't a 36w already be a "mod" of an 18 watter?

I guess that would depend on which 18watter you were talking about. The stock 18watter (Non TMB with tremolo) The Trinity 18watter, Dan Bouls 18watter with ef86 front end, Gradons 18 watter, BBQ guys 18 watter, Ceriatone's 18watter, Ironsounds 18watter. IMO the answer is no. It is a beast all to itself. Many people have built the 36watter with varying results. It is very important to follow the layout exactly in regards to wiring or you may find yourself doing a lot of chopsticking. I don't know how many times people have sent builds to Richie to fix as they couldn't get the sound they were trying to achieve. Richie measures every component he puts in an amp to make sure he will get the same sound from every amp he builds. I know you have stated that you can't hear the difference in different caps but other people do. I may not be able to tell you that you have orange drops, or sozos or mustard caps in your amp but I will be able to hear a difference. Richie has stated MANY times to take his circuit and tweak it to your liking.

So my question is... what does "has these mods" mean... what particular mods are you talking about?

You seem like an inteligent guy so why not spend a little time reading the posts on this site and you will find the answers your looking for. Or better yet why not spend a few months coming up with your own semi designs/ mods instead of asking to be spoon fed and then post them here for free for everyone else to use and then spend the next 5 years here helping everyone make them work.

[JohnnyCrash]

Take it easy.

How did I insult anybody?

1. I know who Richie ("Plexi") is... take your own advice and READ one of my own replies here to my possible confusion over the "plexi mod".
2. I know it's not very easy to take a design and "simply" double up the power section... even with the basic groundwork already there.
3. I am well aware of the Marshall/Bassman connection.

Everything Fender and Marshall did was based on designed/concepts from the past (whether it'd be RCA or Jim from Leo)... Richie has followed in their footsteps and developed a great amp circuit - he'll be the first to admit he started with somebody else's concept. So do NOT take offense at my "Pretty Much Designed" comments... because there was no offense meant.

You seem like an inteligent guy...

You've got to laugh at this one ur12, in your own anger you've mispelled "intelligent"... stop being angry, relax, and laugh a little.

I'm, no genius, BUT I DO understand how much work it must have taken to figure out how much voltage a given circuit needs at every juncture for each component (tube datasheets help us with some of this), what transformer is required based on how much voltage AND current the components require/draw, and all of that fun stuff... uh, we all build amps on this forum...

Some of us for a living, most of us at repair shops, and ALL of us for ourselves for our bands. I haven't built a "stock" amp yet (except for the Fender Reverb clone), nor have I used any kits... I've added Neg Feedback switches to many a Fender amp circuit, have had to figure out which NON standard transformers to use on FREAK builds I've tweaked, and so forth. I'm VERY grateful for everything I've learned on this forum, as well as other forums, books, individuals, my own long trial-and-error experience, and anywhere else I picked up anything useful...

NOBODY is shat out of the womb an expert on anything.

If there was any offense taken, I'm sure Ritchie can speak for himself... so calm yourself down.

You seem like an inteligent guy so why not spend a little time reading the posts on this site and you will find the answers your looking for. Or better yet why not spend a few months coming up with your own semi designs/ mods instead of asking to be spoon fed and then post them here for free for everyone else to use and then spend the next 5 years here helping everyone make them work.

"You seem like a pretty intelligent guy"? Great prelude to the flurry of insults that followed. I never did anything to anybody, relax...

So then why are you here on the forum? We are all just "freeloaders" now? Do you tediously design your own circuits and build them all by your lonesome?

I get tired of seeing folks bash other folks for "not searching" past posts... when I see tired old questions, I do my best to answer them - for newbies or otherwise.

Ritchie and *MOST* of the people on this forum are very gracious, open, and free about sharing information - that's the point of forums. I AM VERY GRATEFULL FOR THIS FORUM AND ALL OF IT'S MEMBERS (even you, although the sarcasm and insults aren't cool). I even offered to meet any FELLOW members at NAMM in January and share my stash of Bourbon.

A lot of people (Weber, Turretboards, Ceriatone, etc) are making a lot of money off of Ritchie's 36watt circuit. That's very respectable, BUT we're all just human beings here... Leo, Jim, and (sorry) Ritchie included.

Now, kick back have a drink, and let's all HAVE FUN "talking shop" on this forum that several people have so graciously provided, shared in, or just helped make a fun place to learn, or helped make fun by simply talking about even the more frivolous side of amps.

[ur12]

Take it easy.

How did I insult anybody?

1. I know who Richie ("Plexi") is... take your own advice and READ one of my own replies here to my possible confusion over the "plexi mod".
2. I know it's not very easy to take a design and "simply" double up the power section... even with the basic groundwork already there.
3. I am well aware of the Marshall/Bassman connection.

1) I know Richie too, for almost 50 years now....he's my brother. I have read your post over and over and even after it was explained to you, you posted this question I was left with the impression there was a "Plexi" (as in the actual Marshall amp) MOD. Wouldn't a 36w already be a "mod" of an 18 watter? I tried to answer your question.

2)If you know it's not that simple then why make it so simple sounding with your statement "Pretty much designed" means he took the classic 18 and doubled it" By using the word "Classic" I assumed you meant the stock Marshall 18 circuit with tremelo. The 36 is a lot different amp.

Everything Fender and Marshall did was based on designed/concepts from the past (whether it'd be RCA or Jim from Leo)... Richie has followed in their footsteps and developed a great amp circuit - he'll be the first to admit he started with somebody else's concept. So do NOT take offense at my "Pretty Much Designed" comments... because there was no offense meant.

So it appears in your opinion no one has truly designed an amp for the last 80 or so years. I do take offense to comments like "pretty much designed" and "Semi-designed" as it implies he never really designed the amp as a whole unit taking into account every part in the amp. Like I said Marshall never built a 36 watt amp like Richie's. It never existed before he took the time to design it.

Design

To conceive or fashion in the mind; invent:
To formulate a plan for; devise:
To plan out in systematic, usually graphic form:
To create or contrive for a particular purpose or effect:
To have as a goal or purpose;
To create or execute in an artistic or highly skilled manner

You seem like an inteligent guy...

You've got to laugh at this one ur12, in your own anger you've mispelled "intelligent"... stop being angry, relax, and laugh a little.

Your right, I did get a laugh out of the thought that I just wrote 400+ words and you found one mispelled. You evidently care more about my spelling than the message I was trying to convey. Actually my typing teacher would have been proud

[NOBODY is shat out of the womb an expert on anything.

Hmmmm "shat"?

shat (sht)
v. Vulgar Slang
A past tense and a past participle of sh"i"t

Everyone is an expert at one thing when they come out of the womb, sucking. (see you made me laugh again)

If there was any offense taken, I'm sure Ritchie can speak for himself... so calm yourself down.

Yes. Richie can speak for himself and maybe he will, but I also know first hand he is tired of coming in here and defending himself.

So then why are you here on the forum? We are all just "freeloaders" now? Do you tediously design your own circuits and build them all by your lonesome?

Sometimes I wonder myself. No, not all people are freeloaders, just some. Some people are here to help, some to build amps and some to offer up new designs and mods to the masses. Yes I am one of those people who tediously design my own circuits and build them all by my lonesome for 30+years now.

Now, kick back have a drink, and let's all HAVE FUN "talking shop" on this forum that several people have so graciously provided, shared in, or just helped make a fun place to learn, or helped make fun by simply talking about even the more frivolous side of amps.

OK so what ODs are you going with? 715, 716, 6ps,PVCs. In my experience the 715s and 716s seem to be a little harsh or trebley sounding in a marshall style circuit as the were designed for switching circuits, power supplies and high frequency applications. IMO the 36 watt has enough treble without adding more. I perfer the PVCs and the 6PS series myself. Personally I think the Malory 150s are just the ticket but they aren't as pretty as the ODs.

[JohnnyCrash]

1) I know Richie too, for almost 50 years now....he's my brother.

That explains some sensitivity to my wordings then... like I said, I really did not mean to be offensive in any way shape or form.

Just about everyone on this forum know who Ritchie is... so trust me, I respect what he's done - afterall I chose his design over the JTM45 for my next build

So it appears in your opinion no one has truly designed an amp for the last 80 or so years...

Well, not exactly. But still, Fender didn't invent the vacuum tube. He didn't invent electronic components. Some of the first vacuum tube powered audio equipment (radios) he USED to develop his amps.

We all have building blocks.

In this day and age, most aspects of the electric guitar tube amplifier has been tested, built, and tried to be true. From how power tubes are biased to PI's, to the tone stack, etc.

Still what Ritchie and many other designers/builders have done past and present is really awesome in my book.

I give credit to Fender, Marshall, your bro, and countless other guitar fanatics who have developed their own stuff, and in turn benefited others with sharing it to them...

I meant in no way, to dimenish anything Fender, Marshall, or ANYBODY has ever done to forward amp designs. I dig amps like we all do, I respect folks who've carried things much further than their predeccessors.

I do take offense to comments like...

Again, I meant no offense to anybody.

Hmmmm "shat"?

shat (sht)
v. Vulgar Slang
A past tense and a past participle of sh"i"t

Everyone is an expert at one thing when they come out of the womb, sucking. (see you made me laugh again)

HAHA! Yeah, you know... "shat". Haven't you seen "Bad Santa"? If not, you should watch it, it's hilarious... that's were I lifted that phrase from.

Yes. Richie can speak for himself and maybe he will, but I also know first hand he is tired of coming in here and defending himself.

Nobody has to defend themselves from anything I've said. Again, nothing I said was meant to cause ANY offense.

Sometimes I wonder myself. No, not all people are freeloaders, just some. Some people are here to help, some to build amps and some to offer up new designs and mods to the masses. Yes I am one of those people who tediously design my own circuits and build them all by my lonesome for 30+years now.

Well I don't mind if people freeload. I try to help answer questions when I can. The more the merrier!

I like guys like you, "stock build" is not in our vocabulary... so why am I going for the 36w "stock" as Ritchie designed it? 'Cause it's a good design! AND it'll probably be my last personal build for a while... SO I wanted something already together that wouldn't need ANY modifications - quick and easy

Again, I never meant to imply anything regarding anybody's design and hard work... this 36w circuit is damn cool! I can't run a JTM45 at half power... and I wanted a british flavored amp - I like Vox, but the 36w looks a bit more exciting.

OK so what ODs are you going with? 715, 716, 6ps,PVCs. In my experience the 715s and 716s seem to be a little harsh or trebley sounding in a marshall style circuit as the were designed for switching circuits, power supplies and high frequency applications. IMO the 36 watt has enough treble without adding more. I perfer the PVCs and the 6PS series myself. Personally I think the Malory 150s are just the ticket but they aren't as pretty as the ODs.

I've swapped a ton of caps over time and haven't really noticed anything too drastic... so maybe my ears aren't as good as your guys'. I've pretty much always gone with Mallory's though so I figured I'd try the ODs this time again.

I'm getting a lot of varied feedback on who likes what and why, so I'm really not too sure what I'll use. Yeah, I was going with them for their looks mainly HAHA, so I know that's not a super cool reason (especially since it'll be hidden in a chassis and cab).

I haven't ordered any caps yet, so I just don't know what I'll do

[krash]

Let me tell you something: the difference between a 0.56uF and 0.68uF cathode bypass cap may be the difference between an amp that sounds balanced and tight and terrific, vs. one that sounds flabby and unrefined and useless. That's the very next standard capacitor value. Don't underestimate the sum of the aparently small parts deviations from one "textbook" design to its derivitives. The difference between "adequate" and "great" are in these minute details.

Now FWIW I think the "Plexi" aka "Richie" TMB/36W is a very unique design with a lot of character of its own, not at all really much of an 18W derivation. It may share nearly the same chassis and family of transformer but pretty much the whole rest of it is just as similar to an AC30 as it is to an 18W.

[Mr_dB]

Have you ever opened a SF Fender... only to see it chock full of the original caps... Mallorys? Well, I have - and they didn't sound very Marshall-ish to me

Mallory 150s are not very similar to the sorts of Mallory film caps and electrolytic caps that Fender used in the 1970s.

If you think the difference people are hearing between Sprague Orange Drops and Mallory 150s are all down to component tolerances, then how odd is it that the tolerances always tend in the same direction, regardless of the capacitor value?

All you can do is taste it and see, but in my opinion Orange Drops can sound a bit harsh and "twinky" in a Marshall type amp.

If "caps is caps", then why go with the Spragues, since they seem to cost a bit more than the 150s, and don't fit as well into a turretboard-style layout?

[JohnnyCrash]

If "caps is caps", then why go with the Spragues, since they seem to cost a bit more than the 150s, and don't fit as well into a turretboard-style layout?

I mean that, only to a degree.

Like I said, I hear both sides of the OD vs Mallory debate... to me I've heard very little differences in my experiences...

Albeit, I'm still a youngster (especially compared to a lot of folks here), so perhaps I haven't had enough amps on the bench to get as educated of an opinion for myself.

I've also heard the "Sozo vs everything" debate... I figured I'd stray from the old Mallory fix I'm always on and try something sort of new.

Perhaps I should not though, since the general consensus thusfar has been for the Mallory's... then again, how will I ever know for myself... I just don't know what I'll end up doing yet.