The other bad news about NOS...

[novemberrain]

First the good news... WWII and the wars after it taught the major world powers that "he who manufactures the most stuff wins", that's why there's still NOS JAN stockpiles in the U.S., in the years between Korea and Vietnam there may not have been a war on but the Powers That Be damn sure were gonna be prepared for one!

NOW THE BAD NEWS... I've seen this a lot in manufacturing. A plant has a bad day or a bad shift, they manufacture parts that day that don't quite meet specifications. What frequently happens is that those parts are then stashed in a warehouse in case the customer relaxes their specifications and the parts become acceptable OR perhaps a Third World customer will step forwards, one who isn't so picky about quality. For some parts it may be possible to re-work 'em to get 'em to meet spec, obviously enough tubes are what they are, either they meet spec or they don't.

Picture a dusty stockpile of vintage electronics parts in a warehouse. The parent company gets assimilated by a larger company, spun off in another deal, eventually closed or changed beyond recognition over the years. The documentation on our hypothetical inventory gets misplaced OR the real estate where the inventory is stored gets sold to a company with no expertise in our parts.

I'm not going to name names but a former manufacturer of tubes now manufactures light bulbs. Back when they manufactured tubes it was o.k. to bring home lunchboxes full of rejects, these days they bust up the reject bulbs before they hit the dumpster... it seems that large lots of cut rate projection TV bulbs were being sold on FleaBay, stuff that had the manfacturer's name on it but for one reason or another wouldn't work properly!

Another example, not exactly tubes... a certain capacitor manufacturer used to have plants all over the U.S., they still do. They'd stash large lots of caps that were outside spec and employees would bring home lunchboxes full of rejects, those inventories are emerging as "NOS" now.

[ampguy]

I remember reading an article in Vacume Tube Valley about major NOS scaming involving relabeled Chinese tubes. This is more common then we would like to think. The article had pictures of copies, mostly Mullard,
next to the real thing. If you paid attention there was always some detail
like "RCA 6L6GC" made in.....Great Britain? Jim

[novemberrain]

I remember reading an article in Vacume Tube Valley about major NOS scaming involving relabeled Chinese tubes. This is more common then we would like to think. The article had pictures of copies, mostly Mullard, next to the real thing.

Perhaps I've developed a failure to grasp analogies but how is that different from the "reissue" Mullards?

O.k., they're semi-honest in that the tubes say "Made in Russia" and the overall look is distinctly Reflektor. For what some music stores are chargin' for 'em I can almost buy NOS...

[ampguy]

I am talking not about reissues, but counterfeits. Hey, you are much better off with a reissue then the fake. They try to make them look real
but mess up in the details like the box or the printing font, or the point of
origin being obviously bogus. The reissues are great tubes. I am using
the new Groove Tube 6l6GC now. 90% made in USA on tooling that produced the RCA Black Plate. Why take chances?

[rjgtr]

Calling the NS Mullards "reissues" is a stretch. Normally a reissue is something that is built like the original and is supposed to sound like the original. The NS Mullards might be nice tubes, but only share a name with the originals.

At least GT is making an attempt to get the right sound.

[Roudyrockr]

Calling them NOS or Mullards or Svetlanas or Tungsol or whatever doesn't matter,..... a lie is a lie. You can buy up all the brand names you want, but if you don't buy up the equipment that made the great tubes originally, then you are just a Tomb Raider.

Mike Matthews has been rallying guitarists to his cause of defeating the Russian Mafia when he is just an American mafia money grubber buying defunct brands and using them to sell his inferior products while rallying around the flag for his defense. Yes you can buy a Russian neuclear briefcase if you have enough money. Ho's abound in the old USSR

Yet we still see posts from new ditto heads supporting his stupid BS marketing crap. There is obviously a scramble to take advantage of our mojo despiration and screw us all out of a lot of money by selling us inaccurate replicas in our search for historic tone.

Mike thinks we're all dumb ass plank spankers ready to be gleaned of our moolah. Come on guys, wake up and smell the coffee

[jetson]

from what i have found, Ie; differences between my stock of NOS and old pulled tubes, its getting to the point that why not go with proven new, (new) tubes
i have all (most) brands desired, albet in few quantities. but at the end of the day i will , and so will most go to the new production tube. this is not b/s but we will have to
what happens the day your old mullard or brimer dies well ill get another. wrong. the future is in making this new glasss do what it is we want.
there is nothing wrong with pining over the way things were, or the way they use to be made, but reality is settting in. some of the new glass is very good. and will also stand up to the riggors of old.
the Sarg and others have plenty of glass to make your dreams come true. at a price, BUT, come true.
a lot of it depends on how you play your amp and what you expect it to sound like.
right now, for me, i have to go with the best thats being produced NOW
i will however NEVER sacrifice my tone

[krash]

I guess I'm the only dufus out here wishing they still made a not-so-old RUSSIAN tube ... The Sovtek 12AX7WXT+ is my favorite all-around 12AX7 .. yeah there are uses where I prefer a Telefunken (hifi, maybe lower gain needs than a guitar amp), or a Mullard (really like the Mullard in the Normal channel of my 18W), or even an old JAN 5751 or 7025 but if I have to just plug and go, I always grab the WXT+. So maybe I need to go buy up a bunch of NOS WXT+'s

Anyway the point is, there's no reason why they can't make a terrific tube TODAY. They did, just yesterday! They are making non-reissues and calling them "Mullard" or "Tung-Sol" because guess what ... a lot of us will pay more for one that says "Mullard" or "Tung-Sol" or even "EH" than one that just says "Sovtek". If we would just get over this yesteryear stuff and give some real feedback about what's good about today's tubes, then we could move forward with great stuff out of the current factories. As long as we're more interested in the silk screen than we are the tone, we'll get just what we are asking for.

[kyoungsteadt]

We also need to put our money where our mouth is. If we don't support the companies that are building tubes now by buying their tubes. We will be hurting ourselves in the future. Companies like JJ Electronics are putting out good stuff, some of the Sovtek stuff is good too.

I wonder If the testing was totally blind, what even the hardened tube enthusiast would pick. I bet it would be surprising. The new stuff may fare better than most would think...

Bottom line, buying new production tubes helps to ensure tubes will be available in the future, IMHO.

[Michael]

Remember, Mullards were ubiquitous cheap tubes back in the day. They worked well...did their job.

Now, since they are rare, they are reveared. Don't get me wrong; they are great tubes.

Now we have JJs. These are excellent tubes with rich sound, very reliable, and very well priced.

50 years from now, if JJ is long gone, people will be paying $1000 for JJ EL84s and 6L6GCs.

I buy and use what sounds best. JJs are at the top of my personal list. I do buy and play lots of older tubes, including old 6EZ5s, because of the tone (echoes "The Tone, the tone, the tone...fade").

NOS are definitely overpriced from a tone perspective. Of course, you can't overprice them from a MOJO perspective if people are willing to pay.

[kyoungsteadt]

MOJO is in the mind...

[novemberrain]

The reissues are great tubes. I am using
the new Groove Tube 6l6GC now. 90% made in USA on tooling that produced the RCA Black Plate. Why take chances?

AP was hyping that as the "6L6GE", it's supposed to be a reissue of the old GE 6L6 and apparently it's built on original GE tooling with 90% U.S. content. Then again that other 10% may be the Chinese made cathodes...

I don't know if they have "RCA" tooling. From what I've seen in NOS it looks like RCA had at least three complete sets of tooling. From a manufacturing standpoint the tooling doesn't matter as much as how well the tooling has been maintained and how true the current manufacturing methods are to the orignal PROCESS. There have been subtle shifts in material supply lines in the nearly 50 years between now and the original "Black Plates", plus due to safety and environmental concerns some compounds and processes can't be duplicated. All good reasons to manufacture new tubes SOMEWHERE ELSE!

BTW there were tubes manufactured on "Mullard" tooling in Japan and India years ago. That don't make 'em "Mullards" although they'd be excellent candidates for bogus re-lablels.

And, oh yeah, ALL the General Electric 6L6s I've seen have been grey plate. If anyone has a GE 6L6GC with a black plate let me know. Between the NOS GE 5881s and NOS GE 6L6GCs in my inventory I don't expect to be buying "reissues" any time soon!

NOS are definitely overpriced from a tone perspective. Of course, you can't overprice them from a MOJO perspective if people are willing to pay.

>GIANT SIGH<

NOS is overpriced if you buy your stuff from retail vendors. What you should be payin' for is ease of procurement, THEY do the work findin' this stuff and with gas at around $3.00 per gallon that's worth SOMETHING. THEN you're payin for REPUTATION, if you pay the big bucks you better get genuine top quality UNUSED tubes in their ORIGINAL BOXES with MATCHING SPECS and hopefully matching EIA or manufacturer's codes. THAT'S the good stuff, all else is warm beer. Although I LIKE my beer warm...

IF you're willing to do a bit of legwork the good stuff (NOS) is out there for cheap money. I just scored another 200 tubes this month, ALL NOS for audio applications, no horizonal output tubes here! I got 'em in a horsetrade, no money changed hands.

MOJO is in the mind...

Nope. Mojo is at:

513 South Dudley Street
Burgaw, North Carolina 28425

[lastwinj]

Calling them NOS or Mullards or Svetlanas or Tungsol or whatever doesn't matter,..... a lie is a lie. You can buy up all the brand names you want, but if you don't buy up the equipment that made the great tubes originally, then you are just a Tomb Raider.

Mike Matthews has been rallying guitarists to his cause of defeating the Russian Mafia when he is just an American mafia money grubber buying defunct brands and using them to sell his inferior products while rallying around the flag for his defense. Yes you can buy a Russian neuclear briefcase if you have enough money. Ho's abound in the old USSR

Yet we still see posts from new ditto heads supporting his stupid BS marketing crap. There is obviously a scramble to take advantage of our mojo despiration and screw us all out of a lot of money by selling us inaccurate replicas in our search for historic tone.

Mike thinks we're all dumb ass plank spankers ready to be gleaned of our moolah. Come on guys, wake up and smell the coffee

for the consumer as a whole, he is right on with that thinking. but, he should be supported, because without that tube factory, prices are going to skyrocket.

[clyde]

Mullards were more than a name, they were superior tubes that could take
punishing conditions that today's current production cannot. Nobody runs tubes harder than guitar amps although I have seen some hifi that runs El84's to the extreme too. That being said however, the future is in the factories
now making the product and we hope they will be better, maybe even surpassing Mullard quality and engineering. Why not?

[novemberrain]

without that tube factory, prices are going to skyrocket.

Gee, I hope so! Then I'll go public, liquidate my inventory of NOS, and do nuthin' but ride my old motorcycles!

[TylerSavage]

we're all making and tweaking amps to sound as good if not better than stock from yester year... why can't new production tubes reach that level?

watch in 50 years people complaining about 2000-2010 being the "golden years" of tube manufacture

[novemberrain]

watch in 50 years people complaining about 2000-2010 being the "golden years" of tube manufacture

In 50 years we'll have reissues of those CD DJ turntables... the ones that let you "scratch" with a CD! It's too bad I won't be around to hear the hilarious covers of current Top 40 tunes.

It's funny how things change, I remember when heavy guitars were supposed to sustain better! REALLY heavy! Light strings 1/64" off the neck at the 12th fret used to be cool. I wish I bought more tube amps back around 1978-1980, I could buy black panel Fenders for as low as $100 each and Marshall 50 watt heads for $300!

Believe it or not it's easier for me to buy NOS tubes NOW than it was in '78.

[HeeBGB]

we're all making and tweaking amps to sound as good if not better than stock from yester year... why can't new production tubes reach that level?

watch in 50 years people complaining about 2000-2010 being the "golden years" of tube manufacture

When all the NOS tubes that we covet were still in production, we had the luxury of government backing. That is to say that ALL government communications (and much more) equipment used vacuum tubes. The government (many governments actually) bought them by the warehouse full and stored them for use in their equipment. As that equipment got replaced by transistorized equipment the need for vacuum tubes vanished. Without those government contracts it is not feasible for them to produce these items at the quality they once were.

Think about this. The ONLY people left on the planet that use vacuum tubes are guitar players and audio philes. TV's don't even use picture tubes anymore. The numbers simply aren't there. It could be argued that with the improvements in technology, better tubes could be produced BUT investments would have to be made and I don't think anyone is going to invest in a dying technology....except maybe Mike Mathews and he seems to be doing just fine for the moment.

[billv]

Don't forget high power RF transmitter tubes - we couldn't hear the latest Britney Spears emotional meltdown song on the radio without 'em!

[IronPlant]

demands for tubes might go up in the next few decades.

Where are the chinese kids going to get all their tubes when they want to rock out? If things keep going the way they are, that will eventually happen.