36W; More headroom for solos?

[martinw]

I'm wondering if a 36W might address my problem. With my 18W Lite, I find it impossible to get a volume boost for solos. Now I understand this is to be expected, after all it's a simple design, single channel, and any boost device placed in front of the preamp just produces more drive, and no extra volume. (Once the amp is at gigging volume anyway.) I set the volume to between 4 and 8, but there's really little difference between the two, just more saturation. This is fine, it's really why I built the amp.

However, at gigs I would really like to use my Carl Martin Hydra boost (or something similar) to kick in some extra volume, so would a 36W allow me to do this?

Or is there a way I could do this with the 18W?

Additionally at my last gig, the biggest we've played to date, I plum ran out of volume. I just wasn't loud enough. I'm using a Marshall JTM C410 4 x 10" with fairly cheap speakers, so maybe a better cab would address that issue? (I'm considering building a 2 x 12" with Vintage 30's or similar)

Thanks

[7enderman]

Hi,
the way to give you the needed attention while soloing is simple: forget booster or overdrives.
you need an eq pedal. increase the mids a bit and you will be heard.

and regarding the 36watt... yes the 36er has more headroom.
but for soloing the behaviour is quite the same.
the 36er will give you a wide range of sounds at higher volumes.
with a roll back of the guitar volume i can switch from highgain to nearly crystal clean.
if my amp is on the 18watt stage, i can reach at maximum a fine crunch sound at gigging volume levels.
if you need real cleansounds at high volumes too, the 36er is more flexible.

and regarding the cab... i have all my amps equiped with weber speakers.
they have a much better degree of effectiveness.
if you prefer 10" ones try 2x 10A125 on top and 2x10F150 for the ceramic punch.

[BBQLS1]

I'm building a JTM45 to solve the problem, next will be some type of Plexi!



Or, maybe that 30W EL34 LiteIIb, we've been discussing on this board?

[tarzanalog]

Definitely try the EQ or better yet a Rangemaster clone... that's you're least expensive solution. If you don't like the tone with that setup then perhaps replacement speakers would be an option.

The human ear perceives every +3dB as "twice as loud". Doubling amp power gets you +3dB, getting the speaker SPL up +3dB does the same as far as our ears are concerned.

I had a hard time finding specs on those 10-inch "goldback" speakers of yours, but my guess is that they are around 97dB SPL. Switching out for Eminence Ramrods (which I love) and/or Ragin' Cajuns would take that to 100dB SPL and sound almost twice as loud w/ the same amp.

Best to still search for the spec sheet for your current speakers though or request the info. from Celestion or Marshall. If they are already at that SPL you will gain nothing in volume (although maybe better tone) with the Eminence speakers.

(BTW - Ted doesn't have SPL ratings on his web page... maybe that's why I never shop there?!? He is offering 10% off until 12/31, though. Might be worth calling him with your dilemna.)

[d95err]

The human ear perceives every +3dB as "twice as loud". Doubling amp power gets you +3dB, getting the speaker SPL up +3dB does the same as far as our ears are concerned.

No. You've got percieved volume and power mixed up.

To get twice the Percieved volume, you need +10dB, or about 10 times the power.

Twice the Power of an amp will increase the volume by about 3dB. This is a very small volume increase, so small that most people wouldn't even notice if you turned your amp up 3dB at a gig.

Twice the number of speakers also results in about +3dB (i.e. the same effect as twice the amp power).

[tarzanalog]

The human ear perceives every +3dB as "twice as loud". Doubling amp power gets you +3dB, getting the speaker SPL up +3dB does the same as far as our ears are concerned.

No. You've got percieved volume and power mixed up.

To get twice the Percieved volume, you need +10dB, or about 10 times the power.

Yes. My bad. You are correct, to a point. Power x10 would actually be more like +15dB which would then be well more than twice as loud.

Twice the Power of an amp will increase the volume by about 3dB. This is a very small volume increase, so small that most people wouldn't even notice if you turned your amp up 3dB at a gig.

But this CAN be enough to compensate for being topped out and needing a little more headroom for solos. I've been there, done that... and it works.

Twice the number of speakers also results in about +3dB (i.e. the same effect as twice the amp power).

I think YOU'RE incorrect. With the same amount of amp power you will see no real increase in volume. There may be a perceived increase in fullness or variation in tone that may equate to some frequencies being more pronounced than before. But you can't tell me that if he just keeps adding speaker cabs he's going to be louder. I would imagine, in fact, that clean headroom would be reduced simply because the amp would be working harder.

[d95err]

Twice the number of speakers also results in about +3dB (i.e. the same effect as twice the amp power).

I think YOU'RE incorrect. With the same amount of amp power you will see no real increase in volume. There may be a perceived increase in fullness or variation in tone that may equate to some frequencies being more pronounced than before. But you can't tell me that if he just keeps adding speaker cabs he's going to be louder. I would imagine, in fact, that clean headroom would be reduced simply because the amp would be working harder.

People use full-stacks because of the added volume, not just because it looks cool.

Yes, you can keep adding speakers to get more volume, up to the point where each speaker is seeing such a low power it goes below its linear range.

With twice the number of speakers, each speaker sees half the effect, which makes it about equal. However, there are some side effects when running multiple speakers close together and in phase. This accounts for a net total of about 3dB. I can't account for the exact details of this, but that's what I've heard from some very experienced people.

Headroom will increase with more speakers, not just because of the added volume. You also have to take into account speaker saturation.
If a single speaker is pushed hard, it will start to distort instead of increasing output volume. With more speakers, each speaker is pushed less and can thus produce more volume.

[tarzanalog]

Original poster is using an 18W Lite. Methinks he will hit power tube saturation long before he hits speaker saturation. He seems to be looking for a way to get more headroom.

BTW - I just A/B'd my JTM45 clone on "5" w/ 8x10 and JTM45 clone on "5" w/ 8x10 AND 1960A cab and noticed no change in perceived volume. I gained some bass, but nothing else.

Maybe it's just me.

[d95err]

BTW - I just A/B'd my JTM45 clone on "5" w/ 8x10 and JTM45 clone on "5" w/ 8x10 AND 1960A cab and noticed no change in perceived volume. I gained some bass, but nothing else.

First of all, 3dB isn't much, so the difference will be very small. You'd have measure it to really check the difference.

Second, there's no real point in doing the comparison with two different cabs since they will have different speaker efficiency, different frequency response and resonance, etc. If the efficiency of one cab is less than the other, combining them could actually reduce the volume.

An interesting test would be if you could try it with half the speakers of one cab disconnected. However, that would also change the impedance so it may not be a fair test either, even if you change the output impedance of the amp.

For the original poster, I'd say a second equal speaker cab would make approximately the same difference as getting a 36W. The 36W is probably a better solution though, since it saves his back from having to carry that extra cab (+ the build will be a lot of fun )

[tarzanalog]

First of all, 3dB isn't much, so the difference will be very small. You'd have measure it to really check the difference.

So the increase in volume by adding another cab would be relatively the same as switching to speakers that were +3db on their SPL. Hmm, sounds familiar.

martinw, go cheap and try the EQ/booster that 7enderman suggested, then look at speakers with higher SPL (but only if they keep your tone consistent... if not, then what's the point?!?), and then buy a 36W anyway. You know you want one!

[martinw]

Wow, thanks for all the input. I've enjoyed reading it.

I already have on order a Das Musikding "The Range" rangemaster clone, so it sounds like that might be the ideal way to go on for now. The maybe try an EQ pedal.

Further on, I know I really want a bigger amp in my arsenal , with a half power switch, so that I can cope with whatever comes.

I don't particularly want to be tied to a particular cabinet, so more power is the way to go I think.

Thanks all!

[zaphod_phil]

Are you not mic'ing the amp through the PA then? If so, you can reduce the amp's volume a little, so that there's a bit of slack for solos to get more volume.

Definitely try the EQ or better yet a Rangemaster clone... that's you're least expensive solution.

I find my Rangemaster gives great cut-through and increases the percieved volume level. This is probably because of the way it boosts the mids.

[martinw]

Are you not mic'ing the amp through the PA then? If so, you can reduce the amp's volume a little, so that there's a bit of slack for solos to get more volume.

Definitely try the EQ or better yet a Rangemaster clone... that's you're least expensive solution.

I find my Rangemaster gives great cut-through and increases the percieved volume level. This is probably because of the way it boosts the mids.

No we're not mic'ing up...keeping it nice and simple. Not sure our PA speakers could cope! Good point though, but I'm hoping this rangemaster does the job.
The Carl Martin Hydra-Boost I have is a good booster, but without the mid/treble emphasis.

[blaren]

Well...from what I heard or read...more speakers wont make it louder. Doubling the amount of speakers in close proximity to each other though will make it louder...further away. That's why big FOH systems have multiple spkrs/enclosures. They have to maintain a certain dB level at a certain distance. They get the sound to travel further with several cabs than they would with just one.
As far as how much power to make it twice as loud...well let's put it this way since we're talking about speakers... it will take you twice as much power to make a 97dB speaker sound as loud as a 100dB speaker. It's back to the...howcome your AC30 with 2-15W blues is as loud as my marshall with 4-G12H30s?...'Cause them blues is some efficient mofos! Cant remember exactly but IIRC, they have a sensitivity rating of at least 100 and the blackbacks are rated somewhere around 97dB..again, IIRC.
I already had a 2-EL84 (~ 18W) amp and was in the same boat...just COULDNT get it to have any balls with the guit's vol. rolled back a bit to clean it up. The 50W was even MORE unuseable for the rooms I play, just in the other direction.
The 36W is perfect for where I play....except the outdoor gigs and festivals...then I get to pull out the 50 and 100watters.
I never DID try more efficient spkrs with my 18watter. I DID play it with it's original jensen c12Ns (or Rs??? cant remember and dont know the sens rating), a closed back 2-12 cab with a G12H30 and a G12M70 (dont know the rating on the 70 either) and a 4-12 marshall model1982 slant with G12H30s. The bigger the cab the bigger the sound. More bottom...more everything but not really louder....if THAT makes any sense. Definately though, adding speakers wont give any amp more headroom. An impedance mismatch might lol.
So...the 36W "should" only be 3dB louder than the 18W. In reality, it ISNT much louder. I too have the half power switch in my 36W. There is DEFINATELY more headroom in 36W than 18 and it IS somewhat louder.
As much as I dont really like MV amps, I usually use the amp in 36W and use the master. It KICKS!
As was said earlier, it's pretty hard to get clean with a cranked 18W. I mean...cutting powerful FULL clean. In 36W it's pretty easy.
Again, I havent tried more efficient spkrs with an 18W. They MIGHT enable you to run the amp at lower volumes, maintaining some headroom and still have acceptable "loudness".
I DO have an eq pedal in my pedal thing which I use as a boost. I leave it pretty much flat with the main level slider up just a bit. It DOES provide a clean boost in 36W but like you say, it pretty much just messes things up in 18W mode (in a GOOD frickin way, mind you!). It might work a bit better with just the mids slightly boosted but again, adding ANYTHING to a cranked 18W isnt gonna give it headroom...well..except another 18watts lol.
Now I aint saying you should get a 36watter. You already have an EL84 amp and the 36er will sound pretty similar. If your gigs are like mine though, a 50 is too much. For ME, the goldilocks amp is the 36. It perfectly filled the hole in my collection of tools.
Good Luck!

[7enderman]

blaren nailed it.
i just came back few minutes ago from my band and i played the 36er with my les paul tonight.
we switched from 18 to 36Watt back and forwards and what we´ve learned is a similar sound but more balls at 36watt and the mentioned headroom for cleansounds.
and martin... if you want one... take the EF86 version.
i like this option so much.... rich harmonics, real fat distortion and tons of tone.

i have to get rid of my last little hum and noisy problems and after fixing that this little monster will be one of my favourites.

[LarryLarry]

Well, I've got a boost pedal that works better volume-boost wise with my Sweetwood 18 Watt Lite IIb than any other amp I've had. It's a Plosive Electronics May Treble Booster. It has a variable tone/eq switch (8 position?) that I leave on the bassiest setting. This is through a G12H-30. Works great with my LPC and PRS Custom.

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/revi ... oster/10/1

Only problem is they aren't made anymore. I guess I need to open it up and check it out. It seriously kicks up the volume for solos. I also have an MXR micro amp that doesn't come close to effecting the level like the Plosive does...

[martinw]

Thanks Blaren, great post. Also 7enderman, greta to hear from someone using the amps. All confirms what I was thinking it would be like.

I already have a "10Watt" switch on my amp which drops B+ down from 350 to about 275 (IIRC). This has much the same effect as 18 -> 36 watts I imagine. 10W isn't much "quieter", but has less headroom and punch and distorts sooner. I don't often use it now as our drummer bought himself a proper kit which is a lot louder.

Another vote for treble boosters Larry, seems like they should be standard issue. My kit should arrive any day.

Thanks.

[knotscott]

I'm new here and REALLY green at guitar stuff, so take this idea into perspective and have mercy on my soul if it's out in the weeds!

If you were to go from an 18 watter to 36w and split the outputs, you could dedicate a second cabinet to the second output for solos at the flick of a switch (or volume knob). The second cab could focus on high efficiency in the mids at the more audible frequencies so you would not only be louder numerically, it'd sound louder to humans. It doesn't have to be a well balanced full range to act as an enhancement to your main setup. With the right speaker choice and configuration, you should easily be able to gain 6db plus (or more) of very audible sound. You could even split the location of the solo cabs so you can "spread the wealth" a bit.

[martinw]

Interesting idea, but you'd have to have two output transformers, and also the tone shaping is done in the preamp which is shared.
You'd in effect need almost two complete 18w amps built into one chassis! It's possible, and you could have two different preamps, but it would be too complex to bother with IMO.
Easier just to use two seperate amps, which some guitarists do.

[topbrent]

I have played my lite IIB through my marshall 1960bx (4 greenbacks). I can absolutely state that it is just BARELY not enough to cope with a drummer and bass player in a real setting.

It can kinda keep up for all out rockin' out, but as for dynamics...it just ain't enough. I may have to try out the 36w thing too, due to the added "balls". I love the tone of the 18w though. It is the silvatone layout with vintage GDS transformers and jj tubes. I bought it from fellow 18wer stephen. He does good work.