new production 12ax7 opinions

[blaren]

yeah but that's just my point. Dont the np ones cost like 25 bucks a pop? and if you put a np tube on a tester, doesnt it typically test worse than even an average mullard pull (I havent tried this...just what I've read consistently)...and...some of the best sounding old tubes I've found were original 12ax7s in 50 year old amps that I already had and played for 20 years or so. Point is, the old ones just dont seem to "wear-out" as fast as new ones. Of course that too is just what I've "heard". I HAVE tried some np 12AX7s but not the Tung-Sol that (again) I hear sounds GREAT. I'm not closed minded and in fact, my favorite is NOT a mullard...and my fave in my 18/36er V2 is a JJ
The old ones are far from rare and far from hard to find. They sound better, last longer and arent that cost prohibitive.
I dunno....I'm beakin-off a bit cause I was hearing SO much about mullards. I had never tried one. Went on a quest and suddenly I'm waist deep in tubes.
I have some VERY valuable VERY rare 12AX7s too. Like $150ea USED. I couldnt believe it. I listed a few matched pairs of strong GEC KT88s and a pair of mullard labelled munich siemens AX7s. I was hoping for $150ea for the KTs and hopefully $100 for a matched pair of the AX7s. Only one pair of the KTs beat the pair of AX7s . I tried one or two in ALL my amps to see why people would pay SO much for them. I still dont quite get it. I DO know though that I cant afford to have 3 or 4 hundred bucks worth of preamp tubes in all or ANY of my amps (funny though, I seem to be able to afford to keep them in a box). Personally I prefer a shortplate mullard I63 anyway...the $$$ ones sound a little telefunkenish...mellow. Just think...there were 18 of those little buggers in a frickin CHURCH organ for crying out loud. A lot of you guys play in churches. You should ask if you could check-out the basement.
It's funny. Most of the time when you talk to an old timer with tubes, like an ex-repairman, they start out by saying...well...I'm not GIVING them away. My response is hey, I'm bringing money and WANT to pay fair $$ for them. Which I DO. They ALWAYS warm right-up and wind-up GIVING you all their JUNK.
When vintage pre-remote b&w T.Vs become the biggest thing among wallstreet yuppy hi-fi buffs over PLASMA screens.....I'm gonna be RICH!!! lmao
But really, the OS, NOS, gently used, pulls...whatever you call them are relatively abundant, sound GREAT, last LONG, and not that expensive. Even power tubes, when you think about it. I remember (before sovtek came along) when you had to buy NP GE or Sly... or up here, Westinghouse....EL34/6CA7s or 6L6s and they were at least $45 a piece. Not matched or anything. Add biasing (IF you biased back then you PROBABLY didnt do it yourself mo-money mo-money). So now, to pay $200 for a quad of nice XF3s or 2s....doesnt seem that out of line. To earn the $200plus to retube my twin or 100w or Traynor back in the early '70s took a LOT of work hours. Today I make that before lunch.
Well...I wasnt old enough to actually WORK when I needed amps tubed in the '70s. I played in bars but I was only 12. Back then it was cheaper to buy a nice used Traynor with good tubes than to retube the old one. Seriously.
K I'll shut up now. Sorry.

[rjgtr]

For new production, in a Marshall I like a mix of JJs and Shuguang. I use the JJs in the first few positions and the chinese in the others. The cinese seem to like the PI and cathode follower positions and the JJs take the edge off the chinese.

Since Ruby and Shuguang (and GT 12ax7Cs) are all the same I use them interchangeably.

The NS TungSols are nice tubes also, but a little less crunchy. I do like them a lot in a Fender style amp.

The GT-12ax7M (mullards) are actually pretty good sounding. Not as good as NOS or ANOS Mullards, but better than some NOS tubes.

For NOS my favorites are Mullards, Brimar and RFT. RFT are best in an amp that you're going to distort most of the time. RCAs are great in Fenders but can be a little too bright in a MArshall.

As for what to put in an amp - my advice is to use new production for most positions but use a NOS tube in V1. Preamp tubes last a long time, especially NOS. V1 is usually working the least hard. A tube there will last a lot longer than the PI.

I usually don't like Sovteks. Just boring. The EH and NS TunSols are good though the EH are still a little bit uninspiring.

just my .02

[tarzanalog]

Good points, all.

The np TS RI 12AX7 is only $15 BTW.

I usually swap tubes with an open mind. Probably comes from five years with my Univalve and all of the found tubes I've rolled through it. We have an E-waste program where I work and my friends who do the demanufacturing keep me in tubes as long as I keep them in beer. I'm even starting to get them trained to look for quality X-formers, speakers, and even complete working test equipment. What I really NEED to do is brush up on my vintage Hi-Fi values and get them to start setting that stuff aside. "There's gold in them thar hills!"

FWIW - The only Mullard preamp tubes that I've fallen in love with are the CV4024s. Maybe I just haven't met the right 12AX7?!? I dunno, but getting tubes how I do I will never pay more than $10 for NOS anymore.

[nomad100]

i've never paid close to 25 bucks for a NP 12AX7. I've tried EH, JJ and a chines that came in my Vj. I've been considering trying a few others just in my v1 position of my MB, and VJ.

For my VJ i like he long plate JJ the best.
in my mesa i like the short plate jj 12AX7.
I'd have to listen to the other tubes again to give a description of the tone they had with my gear. I have a (non drug related) very short term memory.

[blaren]

yeah...great points and info.
I didnt know that V1 wasnt very hard on tubes. Speaking to the "electronics hazardous waste" guys is an EXCELLENT idea. There really IS gold in them thar hills. Thing is (good thing?), most people dont know yet. Bad thing is...."hey I was wondering if you had any old tubes kickin' around?"...."ohhhh too late, we just threw-out about 2000 tubes and 3 testers last week"
Last time thats what they said to me....followed by a ..."oh wait a minute...maybe not...follow me....oh, no...HERE they all are!!"
Like I said....when the old B&W t.v sets come back-in, I'm gonna be DA MAN!!!
Things I gotta try:
RFT!!!!
Tung-Sol RI
and especially...
LOOSING THIS ADDICTION!
I have ENOUGH of the best tubes already...WHAT am I DOING??? Someone call A&E and get me on that intervention show.
Even IF I DO have all the best tubes...
Say I have...oh....40 pre-amp tubes (12AX7s, 7025s,12AX7A, NP, NOS, OS, shortplates, longplates, 5751s..........) and say I have 8 amps that each take at least 3 of the triodes. OK all you lottery playin' mathematicians...what are the chances that each (or any) amp will end up with the best combination of preamp tubes in it? and ...how long will it take me to match em all up?
Do I need more tubes??? I think not lol.
Oh well...unfortunately, I AM now going to try to find the best combo for ANOTHER amp.
Later fellas

[s2]

Here are my ratings in order of liking:

1. Tung-Sol. Warm and round with enough chime, but not harsh. A little pricey. Maybe 20-25% return rate. Good ones last a long time. Moderate microphonics.

2. Ei. Very open sound with a lot of chime. Great for clean and distortion alike. Horrible microphonics. 75% return rate. Good ones last a few weeks. They seem to have stopped supplying our market, as I can't get them anymore.

3. SED Winged C. This is the original Svetlana factory. NS bought their name, but they continued production in the same factory under a new name. This is a great sounding tube, but it suffers from moderately high microphonics. I hope they get QA under control at some point. They experimented with coating their plates, which helped, but dulled the tone. Currently 50%+ return rate. I still think their EL34 is the best current production tube on the market, though.

4. EH. Not remarkable, but good overall tone. Low microphonics. 10% return rate. Good balanced tube useful for most applications. Stay away from ALL their 12AT7s!

5. 12AX7M. This one sounds better than the EH, but suffers from noise and reliability problems. 50%+ return rate keeps me from wanting to mess with them even if they do sound good. Moderate to high microphonics. Quality varies greatly from batch to batch.

6. Shuguang. Nice tube, but a little bright. I like it in closed back cabinets or in somewhat dark sounding amps or to liven up a muddy humbucker. Quality varies by batch. Generally moderate microphonics, with moderate noise showing up in some batches. Surprisingly low return rate--10%?

7. JJ. I use this as a utility tube. They have their applications, but I find them to be a little on the shrill side and somewhat brittle. But combined with other tubes or used with darker setups, they can sound really good. See Sovtek 12AX7WA below. Probably experiencing a 20-25% return rate.

8. Sovtek 12AX7LPS. Good '80s rock tube. I like them in Marshalls in moderation. Probably the best preamp tube Sovtek makes. Generally low noise, moderate microphonics, and maybe 33% return rate.

9. Sovtek 12AX7WA. This tube's tone sucks. It is dull sounding and uninspiring. BUT (and this is a huge BUT), it is the quietest tube on God's green Earth. I'm convinced you could beat it with a 2x4 and it still wouldn't go microphonic (which is why every major amp company supplies them OEM). Stick it in those high impedance positions that really bring out the microphonics in wimpier tubes, and this thing will be quiet. Mix it with brighter tubes like JJs or Shuguangs and all is well. Virtually 0% return rate.

[rjgtr]

S2, interesting...

On JJs what is your opinion of the ECC803S compared to the ECC83S? I found the 803 to be higher gain but more shrill. I miss the original Tesla ECC83. That was a full sounding tube.

I have found the Shuguangs to be very reliable, but there is a little variance in the noise. I only buy the GT12ax7Ms from a reliable tester. Even then a few have gone bad, but it is a very nice sounding tube.

I'll have to take another look at the RI TungSol.

[s2]

Richard,

I tend to agree with you on the 803 vs. 83S comparison. But I like to use 803s with a dull set of power tubes like Sovtek EL84s. That combination can turn a Pro Jr or Blues Jr into a little monster!!!

[floridajack]

wow!!

s2, rj,

thanks for all the info in this thread. it has given me new insight into the "junk" new stock tubes i have collected over the years. i plan to try some of your (s2) combinations using some of the tubes that i "almost liked." great stuff.

fj

[s2]

wow!!

s2, rj,

thanks for all the info in this thread. it has given me new insight into the "junk" new stock tubes i have collected over the years. i plan to try some of your (s2) combinations using some of the tubes that i "almost liked." great stuff.

fj

People are often surprised when the open up their new (or repaired and retubed) amps to find several different brands of tubes. They think I may have scraped the bottom of the old tube barrel.

Generally speaking, my methodology for tubing an amp includes loading it with a known good set of average quality tubes. I look for any positions which are especially sensitive. I 1st try an EH in those spots to see if it tames them. If not, I go to 12AX7WAs, which will almost always fix things. Then, I listen to the amp and start working on its deficiencies by putting different tubes in the remaining positions until I get the right balance.

To your other point, I have to agree that, "They don't make 'em like they used to!"

New production tubes are absolute crap in terms of quality. Anyone who is wondering if it is worth it to buy from someone who tests and guarantees their tubes, the answer is a HUGE "YES!" You wouldn't believe what a pain it is to test all those tubes and return the bad ones (and fight with the vendors who don't want them back). That's why I don't do it.

Anyway, I think modern tube manufacturers have the capability to build them as well as they used to be made, but they don't have the QA mind to do it.

[tarzanalog]

Anyway, I think modern tube manufacturers have the capability to build them as well as they used to be made, but they don't have the QA mind to do it.

How can %50 - %75 return rates be acceptable?!? Surely they have to do the math at some point and see that something's wrong?!?

[floridajack]

s2,

i understand (from a guy that used to work at a ge plant - not in the tube division) that qa consisted of testing everything and tossing the bad ones. he said that since there is no way to "adjust" a poor performing tube, that if it didn't make the grade, it went in the dumpster. just think of how many 95% tubes there are in the landfills in new jersey!!!

looks like that culling process has just moved a little closer to the street. unfortunately all of the folks that i know that deal with new mfgr. tubes have to deal with the same thing that you do. some days you must feel like jumping up and down on a case of tubes!!

fj

[rjgtr]

s2 - I do the exact same thing. I also find what works in the amp by swapping different tubes. It is amazing that a tube might not be my personal favorite generally, works great in a specific amp.

The amps I normally play through are all over the map as far as tube brands. I generally like a NOS Mullard in V1, but V2, V3, etc could be any combination of Mullards, RFT, Phillips, RCA, Brimar or current production.

Once you know the characteristics of modern production tubes you can use that to your advantage. I have a little site on my personal home page that describes a bunch of the recent and current production tubes and how they respond. It is centered on Rivera amps, but it is applicable to any other amp as well. I inherited it and expanded and updated it. Click on the 'WWW' below to check it out.

[s2]

Anyway, I think modern tube manufacturers have the capability to build them as well as they used to be made, but they don't have the QA mind to do it.

How can %50 - %75 return rates be acceptable?!? Surely they have to do the math at some point and see that something's wrong?!?

Well, I agree with you, but the manufacturers are pretty well insulated. First off, the give vendors a hard time about returning them by saying the rejects are used or abused. Then, there's the fact that if we do manage to return them, we have to eat the shipping, etc. So most of use just eat them and they never get them back, because it isn't worth it to go through the returns process.

Essentially, we let them get away with it.

[Buschman]

FWIW-just tried a new Groove Tube 12ax7 Mullard clone-went microphonic on the first gig!

Anybody try TAD 12ax7s? I just bought some TAD el84s & they were ok. Maybe a bit darker than most but strong enough.

[dotfret]

I just bought an amp as a sample (resale possiblilities). It came with EH 12AX7s and sounded like a box of cornflakes. Changed those for old Jap Realistics - now it is smooooth! ELLO TOSH GOT A TOSHIBA?

[tarzanalog]

Changed those for old Jap Realistics - now it is smooooth!

I'm with those!!! I've got this old 7025 that is my "angry tube". That tube in V1 of ANY amp instantly gives it a set of B@LL$

Now THAT tube I'd pay good money for over and over again.

[lo-watt]

Kinda getting off subecjt Let me try and refocus::

New production in a marshall style amp(18 watt to 45 watt) 12ax7 in the preamp

LOTS of good info previously. Thanks guys Your all invited for a crawfish boil in May bring the guitars,i've got the amps!