Best New EL84

ny_racer_xxx · Post by **ny_racer_xxx** » Tue 05/13/08 10:29 am

I've search but haven't found any info on the best new stock EL84's.
I did read that the re-issue Mullards are bull.
I also sent the Sarge an email to see what he has..

Any sugestions?

jcny · Post by **jcny** » Tue 05/13/08 11:14 am

The sarge hooked me up with some NOS Reflector 6n14n-EB's that I think sound great and are supposedly built to last.

Price was great and service was excellent.

Check with him on what he has for pre's also.

loyjdockery · Post by **loyjdockery** » Tue 05/13/08 2:15 pm

I've heard that many like the sound of the JJ / Tesla EL84s. Me included.

ny_racer_xxx · Post by **ny_racer_xxx** » Tue 05/13/08 3:44 pm

Thanks Loy...

CR

Brewmaster · Post by **Brewmaster** » Tue 05/13/08 10:34 pm

Many do like the JJ, I also like the EI. Tube Amp Doctor/TAD are preselected over stamps and are quite good as well but for what they cost the Sarge will hook you up with NOS Russian Saratov made tubes from the late 70's that rival the NOS hex plate Tesla's(Non JJ) I love so much.

Not to digress but I would like to know where the TAD's come from. It is not clear to me since the bottle is larger than JJ, Sovtek, EI, or any other current prod tube I'm familiar with.

ACDCG400 · Post by **ACDCG400** » Wed 05/14/08 8:10 am

I haven't tried NOS stuff, but im quite fond of my JJ's.

i will prolyy be blown away when i try some NOS tubes.

drhulsey · Post by **drhulsey** » Wed 05/14/08 2:19 pm

I hear good things about the 6P14P's from Russia- about $20 a quad. Check ebay.

musicamex · Post by **musicamex** » Wed 05/14/08 8:05 pm

from my limited experience but having built and worked on several lo watt tube amps, and also being a dealer for new sensor (and any nos i can get my hands on) it seems all you have to do is change one of two significant components in a circuit and the whole ball game of what is the "best" anything for a tube amp also changes.

i have ef86 designs that like certain output tubes (to my ear) better than traditional designs using 12ax7 in v-1. bring in a customer into the equation and their taste in sound is often different than mine. (i have pushing 5 decades of abuse from guitars and amps and over zealous drummers plus surviving the 60's that have reduced what i hear---at least so say the audiologists at NAMM every year). some customers prefer the tighter sound of a diode rectifier compared to the sag of a tube rectifier for example. one persons evaluation of sound is a pretty limited test. throw it into a live mix and everything just changed.

one thing i have learned being in the music biz is that very few customers really know what they want or need until they come into my amp lab and start trying different combinations. even the same brand of output tubs will sound vastly different depending on their gm value. i buy a range of matched sets and most customere are surprised when i swap out a set of output tubes with the same brand with a different gm value and the amp becomes tighter or breaks up easier. they go "wow i like this brand, what is it?" well it's the same make-----------------

change the preamp tube, filter caps, resistor types and values, voltages, even lead dress and layout and it's a whole new ballgame. my most popular amps wind up being the simplest, once the customer has a chance to learn a little like i have and continue to do almost every day. i am finding that buying jut what seems to be the currently available mojo parts doesn't guarantee the best sound.

i have a design based on the 18 watters, but using sprague atoms, orange drops, carbon comp resistors and the best tubes doesn't always win the WOW test with customers. better quality parts often equates to better reliability and sound but i have some amps with simple (less is really more in my book) layout and mid line caps and resistors and all shaguang tubes get the most favorable customer comments. one based on the 5E3 princeton, but with a diode rectifier, and a 6l6 outpot tube, and only one knob, a volume control is my favorite practice amp. about 6 watts. mic it and it takes you back to where it all started.

so bottom line is you have to be willing and have a good available source of tubes to try to find the best combo for your particular amp.

sometimes changing a component other than a tube will get you closer to the sound you want. if you have a well laid out simple hand wired design you have a tremendous amount of possible variation in what happens between the input jack and the speaker's output. it's an open book. if you don't like what you have experiment a little.

Post by **rjgtr** » Thu 05/15/08 10:21 am

I also Like JJs and Ei. The Ei is especially nice in a Vox style amp.

I believe most of the TAD tubes are well tested and selected Chinese and seem to be of very good quality.

I also agree that there's a lot more to a tube amp design than 'the magic' tube or part. I have some amps that love (real) Mullard ECC83s and some that are indifferent. It really depends on the number of gain stages etc. Plus some guys will love a one knob amp, while others need more to be happy. Different strokes...

ny_racer_xxx · Post by **ny_racer_xxx** » Thu 05/15/08 12:32 pm

I really only wanted to know what is a decent tube other than Mullards.
The anology is great, but that basically means that ANYTHING in the signal path effects the sound, including the guitar cord, pick, and pots and caps in the guitar.
How much can be heard, and how many of us play well enough to worry about.

CR

Alexo · Post by **Alexo** » Thu 05/15/08 12:58 pm

ny_racer_xxx wrote:I really only wanted to know what is a decent tube other than Mullards.
The anology is great, but that basically means that ANYTHING in the signal path effects the sound, including the guitar cord, pick, and pots and caps in the guitar.
How much can be heard, and how many of us play well enough to worry about.

CR

All those things do affect the sound, even what your wall voltage happens to be on a given day, the size and shape of the room you're in, what the walls are made of, what they're insulated with, what the furniture is made of, the air temperature, if it's raining outside, etc.. Us humans like to think of things as static and simple, but everything pretty much affects everything else and it's all changing from moment to moment. The tubes people disregard today as cheap and lousy might be the sought-after NOS of tomorrow, and vice versa, just trust your ears and do what works for you. JJ's are pretty decent, in my opinion, you can also get RFT's for a good price and they rock, another example of a formerly second rate tube that's become sought after.

musicamex · Post by **musicamex** » Thu 05/15/08 3:00 pm

Alexo wrote:
ny_racer_xxx wrote:I really only wanted to know what is a decent tube other than Mullards.
The anology is great, but that basically means that ANYTHING in the signal path effects the sound, including the guitar cord, pick, and pots and caps in the guitar.
How much can be heard, and how many of us play well enough to worry about.

CR
All those things do affect the sound, even what your wall voltage happens to be on a given day, the size and shape of the room you're in, what the walls are made of, what they're insulated with, what the furniture is made of, the air temperature, if it's raining outside, etc.. Us humans like to think of things as static and simple, but everything pretty much affects everything else and it's all changing from moment to moment. The tubes people disregard today as cheap and lousy might be the sought-after NOS of tomorrow, and vice versa, just trust your ears and do what works for you. JJ's are pretty decent, in my opinion, you can also get RFT's for a good price and they rock, another example of a formerly second rate tube that's become sought after.

voltage here in mexico is the biggest killer and problem causer with tube amps. it is between 128-132 vac but the wiring and demands on street transformers supplying way more casas and businesses than they should
cause huge fluctuations. also many clubs here run their stage like a construction in progress and feed it with an extension cord. physical ground---what the h is that? that isn't part of the program here and electricians here (in general) haven't got a clue. i sell all of my amps here with a CVR/surge supressor and a polarity/ ground tester, and make the customer understands and agrees to use them. i keep a vom plugged in to continuously read voltage during every gig. the lights go on, 2 beer coolers kick in, and the cook begins microwaving something and that sweet spot gets sour. power here is a constantly changing dynamic that greatly affects tone and life expectancy.

tubes are like wine. buy what goes with what's on the table and what matches your pocketbook. as with tubes, caps etc, after a certain price point you get less and less difference in quality for increases in price. still some will swear a $150 bottle of wine is worth the difference over a $15 dollar bottle. in a side by side comparison (without complications of extraneous tastes) perhaps certain nuances become obvious, but take the two equivalent low/ high priced tubes to a gig with a 5 or 6 piece band blowing down some vintage rock and see how many can really tell the difference.

good tubes available to try in el84 are sovtek, jj, mullard copys from russia and believe it or not, the chinese tubes IF they are matched can sound pretty good. with chinese tubes the biggest problem is that they are all over the spectrum. i didn't mean to complicate your choices of tubes, but what i said is really true. EVERYTHING in the signal path affects what comes out of the speaker, ie tone. change one thing in a simple circuit and you will likely see a change, change 2 or 3 and i almost guarantee you will have a different sounding amp. you can include everything before the input jack in the equation too, though a good amp will often make a cheap guitar sound good before a good guitar will sound great through a cheap solid state chino special.

i love a quote from a book i read early on. "Tube amps aren't rocket science, they are a whole lot more complicated than that." the more i am around them and the people that play through them,------------well they sure as hell aren't legos.

pylet2000 · Post by **pylet2000** » Thu 05/15/08 3:45 pm

You know, I'm a tube snob seeking out old tubes (although I'm just as happy with used pulls as NOS). I keep the better of the new tube types around, and use them with results that are acceptable to me.

For example, I run a pair of RCA power tubes in my Lite IIb. Sounds great. The JJ's sound 85% as good. When I'm playing only by myself, I can readily notice that little something extra (goes to 11 maybe?

). With a bass and a drummer thrown in there, I'd likely never be able to tell or feel the difference between those RCA's and the JJ's. I've found this to be consistant with the 6V6's and 12AX7's too. Get the best of breed new production, and when being played live you'll never miss that last little something extra.

If you record a lot or play only by yourself, the NOS are worth seeking out. If you play out a lot, with loud drummers, the new productions are just fine. Save the NOS stuff for the guys that are recording.

ny_racer_xxx · Post by **ny_racer_xxx** » Thu 05/15/08 6:27 pm

Why not just make 10 louder?

You guys have given me great input!!! I really don't need $200 a pair matched NOS Mullards, I just wanted to know what works and whats crap basically. I'm sure there's crappy NOS Mullards, and great sounding chinese tubes...

I orded some Russian 6P14P tubes along with some Russian 6N2P-EV 12ax7 tubes...

CR

musicamex · Post by **musicamex** » Thu 05/15/08 6:53 pm

pylet2000 wrote:You know, I'm a tube snob seeking out old tubes (although I'm just as happy with used pulls as NOS). I keep the better of the new tube types around, and use them with results that are acceptable to me.

For example, I run a pair of RCA power tubes in my Lite IIb. Sounds great. The JJ's sound 85% as good. When I'm playing only by myself, I can readily notice that little something extra (goes to 11 maybe? ). With a bass and a drummer thrown in there, I'd likely never be able to tell or feel the difference between those RCA's and the JJ's. I've found this to be consistant with the 6V6's and 12AX7's too. Get the best of breed new production, and when being played live you'll never miss that last little something extra.

If you record a lot or play only by yourself, the NOS are worth seeking out. If you play out a lot, with loud drummers, the new productions are just fine. Save the NOS stuff for the guys that are recording.

i agree. my cache of old 6l6, 6v6 and el84 tubes are what i use for ME and when i want that extra sparkle. they don't leave my place for a gig. an old rca or sylvania or especially the grey plate coke bottle 6l6 tubes give my low watt single ended 5E3 style amps something extra. no doubt. but i wouldn't waste it on a margarita soaked crowd who couldn't even tell if it was a tube amp in the first place.

some really amazing odd ball tubes out there, like some japanese EL84's that came out of old movie projectors i found are really killer too. it all comes down to "tasting" them and learning. kind of like good fresh salsa. if you know what it tastes like with cilantro you can appreciate the difference. if not a bottle of old el paso will do.

lots of the old stock i have are pulls and they test better than new tubes in more than half of what i find. pulls can be a great source of bargains and turn up in the oddest places. don't forget the other parts associated with old amps. some are packing some amazing iron.

ny_racer_xxx · Post by **ny_racer_xxx** » Thu 05/15/08 10:54 pm

Mex, I have inlaws in South America, do you think there's any stash of NOS tubes there?

CR

musicamex · Post by **musicamex** » Sat 05/17/08 9:38 am

ny_racer_xxx wrote:Mex, I have inlaws in South America, do you think there's any stash of NOS tubes there?

CR

if they are in a big city i have no doubt there are tubes and amps to be found, though latin american countries tend to scrap out anything of value ie transfromers for copper. however if something has potential value it might stay on a store shelf for decades. i'd have them check out old timers with tv/ radio repair shops. i have found caches of old pulls (most of which aren't of direct use for us axe amp guys) and cot mostly el84 and 6v6 tubes which were common in old hi fi gear. also 6l6 and some KILLER old coke bottle tubes.

i found an old bell pa amp that had jan (joint army navy) mil spec tubes in it. they can be the best longest lasting tubes and are built for war, military or rock and roll. i made the best harp amp ever out of that little gem. real point to point wiring, not tag board or eylet card wiring. the old point to point are great platforms for learning as you see exactly where and what is in the signal path.

ny_racer_xxx · Post by **ny_racer_xxx** » Sat 05/17/08 9:44 am

Thanks for the heads up.... I was thinking that technology trickles a little slower to some of the 3rd world countries, maybe some of the spares were still being stocked for repairs....

CR

bluesmagoo69 · Post by **bluesmagoo69** » Fri 05/23/08 8:36 am

Just a quick blurp about the Mullard re-issue I just tried a pair in my
18 watt and was very disappointed with the tone.

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Best New EL84

Best New EL84

they are all different in different amps