Throwing down on Weber Blue Dog and Silver Bell...thoughts?

mattymel · Post by **mattymel** » Sun 10/17/10 6:58 pm

hey. after a long time hearing the stock Celestion Heritage G12Ms in my Marshall 1974x and matching cab, i am finally going to order a Weber Blue Dog and a Silver Bell. I am wondering what you guys think about:

1) i have heard people say that the Silver Bell is better in the Ceramic version. More bass? More bass might be nice. right now with the Celestion Heritage G12Ms i feel my amp is very mid-centric...though i have always been more of an alnico fan, is the Silver Ceramic paired with Alnico Blue as good as all the fuss?

2) if you had to choose one for putting in the actual amp (as opposed to the cab), would you go Blue or Silver?

3) what would the most notable difference be soundwise between the 15 and 30 watt versions?

4) should i hold onto my old greenbacks, or is the blue/silver combo going to blow them away?

Brewmaster · Post by **Brewmaster** » Mon 10/18/10 9:16 am

I have only seen that combination of speakers in a Tweed Bassman amps.
They were the speaker combination d'jour for both the RI 59 bassman and 5F6-A a few years ago.

I don't know how well they would work with an 18 or 36 watt. I'm happy with the Heritage G12H in my 18.

Post by **zaphod_phil** » Mon 10/18/10 1:12 pm

Personally, I'm not real keen on the brightness of alnico speakers combined with the brightness of EL84 amps. It all gets a bit too ice-picky for me. Very different from the balanced crisp definition, of the vintage Pulsonic-coned Celestion Silver Alnicos, used in the original Marshall 18W amps. Supposedly, Scumback have managed to clone the Pulsonic cones and their Scumnico speakers should have the same kind of tone as those vintage silvers - at least that's the theory. Having not played Scumnicos in real life, I can't say how well they live up to the promise, although other Scumback speakers I've heard have sounded pretty darn good.

Post by **colossal** » Mon 10/18/10 5:57 pm

I recently played a 2xEL84 amp(not a Marshall 18W circuit though) through a pair of alnico speakers (one Celestion Gold and one W3ber Thames). It had a great tone for sure, the compression was there and the speakers had a very smooth response with wonderful chime. That said, I wouldn't really equate that with a Marshall-esque sound. I always find myself coming back to the classic Greenback tone and I've had old ones and new ones. I always prefer them in a closed back cab and think a closed back cab helps keep the speaker tight when you push it hard. It also seems to moderate the mid prominence; it is a middy speaker, some might say a bit trebly. You can hear this specifically when you hit a big A chord (2nd fret). The cab will really resonate and the speakers are just magical at that frequency. In an open back cab, I find them to be a bit bright(ish) so perhaps that's what you are experiencing.

If it were me, I would not get rid of those Heritage G12Ms. The Heritage G12H (30W) is reputed to be fantastic with the 18W amps and I have a pair here to try when I finish up my builds. When running a single speaker with an 18W, the consensus here from countless threads is that the the G12H30 Anniversary (75Hz), the Heritage 30 G12H (55Hz) or a Greenback (Heritage) are really great. Or if running a 2x12 cab, the combination of the G12H30 Anniversary with a Celestion Blue. I have no personal experience with either of the W3ber speakers you mentioned so can't help you there but I just don't equate the Marshall tone with an Alnico speaker. That is completely personal though so it's totally up to the ear of the beerholder

The combination of the 30 + Blue is killer, but you definitely get the top end/chime bell-like clarity riding on top with the alnico.

Check out this demo of an 18W 2x12 with the Blue + G12H30 combination:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvHr0YlFPA

This one is a killer recording with just a single Heritage 30:
http://www.retrokingamps.com/bytes/ceda ... rack02.mp3

The Heritage 30 track is what inspired me to finally build the 18W circuit.

vibroluxious · Post by **vibroluxious** » Mon 10/18/10 6:49 pm

I have a 30 watt alnico blue dog and it is my favorite speaker in virtually every amp I run it in. I hated it for the first 10hrs or so though. It took forever to break in. After it broke in it warmed up a lot. I do like a bit of chime in my tone and it delivers it without the ice pick feeling. It was harsh and ice pickey when new though.

I really want to build a 2x12 extension cab with the blue dog and a silver bell.
I could use it with any head and it would sound great.

Post by **zaphod_phil** » Mon 10/18/10 8:13 pm

For a real sonic treat listen to clips 3,4,5 and 6 from the 18W OT shoot out, a few years back, in the Zounds section. http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?name= ... OT_Test_01

The speakers are a pair of vintage Celestion Silver Alnico speakers, of the kind that would be fitted in the 2X12 1973 combos.

mattymel · Post by **mattymel** » Tue 10/19/10 1:01 pm

what is it about the Scumback speakers that you like more than the webers?also, if i were to pair the Scumnico with another scumback, what would you recommend?

Post by **zaphod_phil** » Tue 10/19/10 4:40 pm

Like I said, I haven't heard the Scumnicos in real life - but supposedly they sound exactly like the old Celestion silver alnicos, with the Pulsonic 102 003 cones. Supposedly they are less trebly, and have better mids and bass than current Celestion Blues, which Weber's Blue Dogs are modelled on. If they're as good as they say, then I would just use a pair of those, and not mix them with anything else. With more regular Alnico speakers I would be inclined to combine one with a G12H-30 or equivalent, to balance the treblyness of the one with the smooth deepness of the other.

cl1093 · Post by **cl1093** » Tue 10/19/10 7:39 pm

I have the Weber version of a G12H30 (model 1230) in a half-open back cab and I really dig it with the 18watt. The price was right as well. I haven't had the chance to compare it to a real Celestion but I like the sound that comes out anyway.

mattymel · Post by **mattymel** » Tue 10/19/10 10:52 pm

i think perhaps the open backed quality of my amp and cab is the reason i am looking for more bass. that being said, i like the mids and think it works well within the context of a band. what i wouldnt mind is having the option to hook up the cab if i want more of a bottom end.

perhaps a scumnico in the amp and something more akin to a G12H in the cab?

mattymel · Post by **mattymel** » Sat 10/23/10 5:50 pm

anybody tried the G12H Heritage in a open back cab similar to the 1974cx?

mattymel · Post by **mattymel** » Thu 02/03/11 11:34 pm

well...been a long time coming, but i finally put a new speaker on order.
and the winner is...

SCUMNICO!

got a 16 ohm 30 watt...figured i need to expand my horizons a bit.
glad i did, as Jim at Scumback is ON THE BALL and had it in stock (and prebroken in) and is shipping it tomorrow. gotta love the next day service.

i will chime in once i get to play it a bit. might have to try one of his H55s if this speaker is as sweet as i am hoping.

Wayne_Alexander · Post by **Wayne_Alexander** » Mon 02/07/11 7:31 pm

All of the Scumback speakers are superb if you're looking for a newly made speaker that sounds like what 60's Celestions sound like now. I have Scumnicos in a couple amps, they're superb. A little less "brash" than the Celestion Gold, which is sort of a similar speaker.

mattymel · Post by **mattymel** » Thu 02/10/11 8:15 pm

Hot Dang!

The Scumnico is in and I just got done taking it through the paces with my 1974X. Initial impressions...if this is what Scumback Speakers are all about, Im pretty much done with Celestions. This amp just CAME ALIVE.

I dont think I am stretching much in saying the single Scumnico 30 watt sounds fuller than my 2 Heritage G12Ms combined. I am hearing a more gratifying low end, and sweeter highs. Overall more open sounding.

My gut is telling me to put another Scumnico on order ASAP for the other cab. I think that would be really amazing with this amp. Though, in defense of the G12M, it sounds pretty good paired with the Scumnico. But A/Bing them its not doing it for me anymore.

I was a little worried that trying an alnico speaker might be too bright in the 1974X. But whatever Jim is doing is what I have been waiting for from a Celestion but never heard. After all the hours I spent researching G12Hs, Blues, Weber Blue Dogs, and Silver Bells, I tried a new brand for me and now I am very pleased I did. If you dig classic sounds, this is a modern day classic speaker. Happy camper!

mattymel · Post by **mattymel** » Mon 02/14/11 4:26 am

well. i have lived with the scumnico for a few days and i still feel like it is a nice speaker for the 1974x.

now i am weighing whether or not to go for another one to put in the actual amp, or maybe a scumback H55.

for me, it is hard imagining a speaker being too dark for this amp. the scumnico gets a good amount of low, but i sometimes still want to hear a little more umph...

the question is, am i trying to turn this amp into something its not by going with a H55 (basically Scumback take on G12H)?

i kind of feel like trying it out anyway just to have. if not, i think having 2 scumnicos would be amazing sounding. probably be perfect in a band mix. having the H55 would likely be just for nerding out by myself. hard to say...

anybody tried the scumback H55?

Post by **zaphod_phil** » Mon 02/14/11 9:23 pm

I have been using genuine vintage G12H30s, and they do sound amazing in an 18W. Smooth rich tone, big and loud. So I guess Scumback's H30 equivalent would sound pretty similar. I've so far only been using the 75Hz coned H30s. I wonder of the 55Hz might be a little boomy....

However IMO nothing beats the sound of 60s Silver Alnico speakers (with Pulsonic cones) in an 18W, for sheer harmonic richness and crisp definition, and those were the speakers many of the original Marshall 18Ws came fitted with as stock. Otherwise they had the 20W Greenbacks. I'm not a fan of brights-sounding amps either.

mattymel · Post by **mattymel** » Tue 02/15/11 3:14 am

i hear you. my gut is telling me to just go with another Scumnico, as its hard for me to imagine something i might like better. but i like a little variety.

the crazy thing is that the Scumnico is fuller sounding than when i have 2 G12Ms hooked up. my friend didnt believe me when i told him. it took about two chords for him to give the thumbs up. Jim at Scumback is doing it right.

i A/Bed the Scum with a Weber Blue Dog i use on a old Blackface Deluxe i have, and im glad i went this route. the Blue Dog was WAY too bright for this amp.

Post by **zaphod_phil** » Tue 02/15/11 8:12 am

the Blue Dog was WAY too bright for this amp.

As is the Celestion Blue, which the Weber is pretty much a clone of.

mattymel · Post by **mattymel** » Tue 02/22/11 3:27 pm

I got a Scumback H55 on order. I will report in as to how the Scumnico reacts with it. For me, the H55 may be the answer with a little more low end. We will see. I think another Scumnico would be great (maybe even better than the H55). Prob end up getting another one down the line...

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Throwing down on Weber Blue Dog and Silver Bell...thoughts?

Throwing down on Weber Blue Dog and Silver Bell...thoughts?