Most important component for the "18 watt" sound?

[william]

Excluding the speakers, and realizing opinions are purely subjective, what part of the 18 watt is most crucial to its sound? I realize everything contributes, but if you had to sacrafice quality on everypart but one, which part would that be?

William

[Alex_Law]

Transformers (thanks, Graydon!).

[zaphod_phil]

Yes, transformers...
... followed by tubes....

[Graydon]

The signature of the guy that built it.

Aside from that, I think that is a very hard question to answer. I might agree with those that say "trannys" but there are so many other parts that need to be correct too. I guess I go back to my first answer.

[Wannatone]

Well, in case you´re excluding speakers from the quest, you´re already lost.

Just tell you that I have a croc skin Selmer that I disliked til I plugged it in the right cab. Yikes! One of the greatest amps I´ve ever heard...

So, you can easily screw up the best amp you´ll ever see in your life.

Speakers, speakers, speakers...
followed by (in my $0.02 order)
cab
output tranny
tubes
caps
resistors

voodoo to be placed elsewhere in the list

not to forget things like wire dress that can seriously screw up things...

Adrian

[LPC]

wannatone,

whos cabs do you like from the various manufacturers?

[Ian]

Hi William

Well the amp won’t do anything unless you pick up a guitar & play, and the most important bit of that is you – no substitute for great playing, LoL!

But specifically on the amp itself;- obviously the speakers & the cab play a big part, and amongst the circuit components it seems the Tranny is important. However, the valves will also change your sound, and it’s pretty cheap & easy to experiment with those.

Just my 2-cents, .

Ian.

[Wannatone]

LPC,

should have said cab dimensions and, perhaps, wood.

I can´t vote for a particular cab builder, as I haven´t seen their products yet. But, I´ll be going to build my own cabs, since shipping costs kill, and I was pretty disappointed about what I got from overseas last week.

Well, just another point to add to our list, maybe the most important of all:

- Is it an original amp or not?

Adrian

[Plexi]

"""Well the amp won’t do anything unless you pick up a guitar & play, and the most important bit of that is you –""


I guess my vote being.. electricity.. LOL it won't work unless its plugged in..
Ok joking aside..


Its hard to pick one thing..but in any amp,the OT is the heart of the amp..
You have to have the correct voltages..so the PT and power supply is a big part of the sound. Yep tubes are important..but if they don't have the correct voltages to run them,it can change things..

caps and resistors,layout..all these add up.. So don't overlook anything..
And yes all the final sound come through the OT.. then the speaker/cab..so all of these are important..

Richie

[zaphod_phil]

No votes for the pilot lamp then?

[oggimyson]

zaphod_phil I definately prefer the sound of red pilot lites over yellow ones.

[oggimyson]

zaphod_phil I definately prefer the sound of red pilot lites over yellow ones.

[Wannatone]

Phil,

good point!
I´ve ordered all three (all red like Ian´s, and Mouser red and amber), so I can A/B them. Btw, amber sounds cool

William,
excuse my impertinence... but... if you skip the speaker, you won´t get any sound at all.

Humm... just swapped preamp tubes... and found out that the best amp (with speakers, obviously) can sound lifeless just with the wrong input tube

Swapped back and... YIKES! Tone Heaven!

Adrian

[dboul]

Its hard to pick one thing..but in any amp,the OT is the heart of the amp..
You have to have the correct voltages..so the PT and power supply is a big part of the sound. Yep tubes are important..but if they don't have the correct voltages to run them,it can change things..
Richie

Yeah, if you had to pick one, the OT can have a very dramatic effect on the sound. It's more of a crucial item. You can change caps, speakers, resistors, etc. , but no matter good all that stuff is . . . if the OT is cheap, then the amp sounds like a cheap amp.

Using a standard circuit, my list would be in order . . .(assuming there is electricity Richie)

1. OT
2. Config (voltages, caps, component values, etc.)
3. Speakers
4. Preamp tubes
5. Power tubes
6. Attitude

Grain of salt . . . take with . . .

[SteveinTempe]

I think its the circuit itself the distortion that gets generated in the PI
is very cool , I never thought I would hear all that
cool tone from a single triode stage input,
I agree about the speakers and output transformer
however I have experimented a lot on the cheap..and the old hifi
6bq5 trannies sound great oops..
just my 2 cents

[zaphod_phil]

I´ve ordered all three (all red like Ian´s, and Mouser red and amber), so I can A/B them. Btw, amber sounds cool )

For the authentic Marshall sound it has to be red every time!

FYI, in a recent e-mail from NigelB, he told me that he had swapped the 'off the shelf' JJ EL84s in his amp, for a matched pair of Groove Tube EL84s. Apparantly, that made a huge difference to the sound and took away all the harshness, even though the GT ones were also originally JJs...

[nigelb]

I´ve ordered all three (all red like Ian´s, and Mouser red and amber), so I can A/B them. Btw, amber sounds cool )

For the authentic Marshall sound it has to be red every time!

FYI, in a recent e-mail from NigelB, he told me that he had swapped the 'off the shelf' JJ EL84s in his amp, for a matched pair of Groove Tube EL84s. Apparantly, that made a huge difference to the sound and took away all the harshness, even though the GT ones were also originally JJs...

That was definately the case, though I did describe the change as "a noticeable improvement in clarity, warmth and attack and less harshness". Am I hearing the effects of close matching and grading that GT tells us they perform on their valves? I have noticed large differences in sound by changing valves before with my AX84 P1 which originally had a cheapie EI ECC83. Changing to an Electro Harmonix got rid of a tinniness and harshness and made the P1 really shine. So to me the valves can make a real difference in tone.

My e-mail discussion with Phil stemmed from the fact that I tried both a Hammond 125E and a Drake OP transformer from Amp Components and didn't really notice a difference, though I have not been able to fully crank the amp up at home. And yet the general thread here is that the OP tranny is significant to the sound. I'll include part of my last e-mail to Phil here to open the discussion up on this board.

" Judging from this and the other thread on 18 watt site at the moment it
would seem that you are right in that the OP trannys should sound different in some way. This would seem logical as a transformer is wire and iron and we all know that wire can have an appreciable affect on sound particularly in hi-fi circles. I am a bit of a hi-fi enthusiast too, though not obsessively so, and know the benefit of a good quality interconnect. I currently use Van den Huul signal interconnects costing about £50, above which I believe the law of diminishing returns rapidly comes into play.

With this in mind I am trying to think why I did not notice an appreciable
difference between the two transformers. Could it be:

I have cloth ears - this may not be the case as I appreciate other differences which occur (tubes for example, interconnects in hi-fi etc.)

They are actually not different in sound - though very different in construction and size.

Differences are not so apparent at lower volumes (<50%) - possible I
suppose.

Not being scientific in comparisons and not having an immediate A/B
comparison. It may be possible to 'forget' or get muddled with the
differences in time.

Change in other equipment coinciding with comparison. At around the same time I finished my 2x12 G12H 30 cabinets where I had previously used a 1x12 vintage 30 cab. I don't know exactly when this came into play - again unscientific and may certainly have masked differences in bass response.

Most people seem to think the Heyboer transformers are the dog's bollocks, but I am intrigued as to why this is the case and what it is about it that makes it better. Is it wire gauge or lamination/core size or point at which it saturates to give it a better 'guitar sound' or some other mojo? It seems to me that the only way of doing a proper comparison is to do an A/B, change the transformer and recording each of the results for replay so that you are not reliant on memory or auto-suggestion. I may well try this when I get my MASS in a few weeks. "

Any thoughts anyone.

BTW I am using a green 240v neon as an indicator. Should I upgrade to a red 6.3v bulb? I have heard that apparently purple anodised aluminium screws are essential for fixing the turret board in place.



Nigel

[zaphod_phil]

I was hoping you would join in, Nigel! You must have only just sent that second e-mail to me.

Very interesting input. Personally, I don't believe that matched valves are a requirement for great guitar amp sound. None of the original vintage guitar amps used matched valves, and a degree of imbalance provides for a richer/sweeter sound, due to the increased even harmonics. Unfortunately, I can to this conclusion shortly after buying a pair which I had paid extra for having matched! However, I'm sure that buying good quality tested and selected power valves is important, and I rank that next to the transformers in importance.

[Wannatone]

Hi Phil,

while we´re discussing OT´s...

There appears not to be any OT on the market that matches EXACTLY the original specs, though the Heyboer is the closest available. AFAIK, they dropped the interleaved windings that would have required to wind them by hand and cost a lot more. To be fair, I should note that Marshall appears to have used two different OTs in the original amps. The most desirable would IMO be the RS (Radio Spares) with the top mounted peg board (see Ian's amp). The other one has side mounted solder lugs and might be a Drake?

Recently I got an RS Heavy Duty OT that looked close to the original, and the measured data looked like it could be the real thing. I found out that it is a different model though. I tried it in my amp and was impressed how it came alive... very airy... pretty different than the Heyboer that sounds more meaty.

So, after having tried a number of different OTs in my amp, I've found that the RS Deluxe clone ('64 /'65 JTM-45) from Mercury Magnetics sounds best, and is something very special. Btw, their Tweed Bassman clone comes very close and is quite a bit less expensive. But, I´m talking about something that goes beyond cloning the original 18 watt..

Well, I would be willing to pay the engineering costs for an exact 18 watt clone. Just couldn't find any original tranny, neither dead nor alive. So, I would appreciate any help! Nevertheless, the Heyboer is the best 18 watt OT clone available, and at a GREAT price!

Adrian

[Plexi]

Have you tried the EMC? Also a very good OT.. I liked them quite a bit, just took a while to get them.

Richie