High Volume Distortion Problem

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NewGuitar
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High Volume Distortion Problem

Post by NewGuitar »

First let me apologize if you have read my other posts about the 36 where I did not mention this issue. I did not discover the issue until recently when I cranked on the volume and strummed harder.

I have an odd distortion problem. Please help if you can. Here's the scoop.

The amp plays very well up to about 8 on the volumes. It just begins to distort as expected (nicely distort) at the 6-7 volume settings with moderate strumming. If I strum hard at volumes set around 8 it will make an inconsistent "popping" type of distortion. There is also sometimes a very brief chirp or two with the pops. The pops are irregular and not frequent. It gets worse with volume settings above 8, but still requires moderate to heavy strumming to occur.

Please read the following if you want to reply. This is important history and data.

1) The schematic and layout are based on the current data in the download area for the 36 watter. I applied all of Richie's tweaks, except the 91K resistor on pin 1 of V2.

2) I am also using a 5U4GB Electro Harmonetics for the rectifier tube. (See history below.)

3) See my voltages in the pic on this post. Look at V3. Are the voltages way off (too far off) for pins 2, 3, 7 & 8?

4) I am using 150 ohm resistors on the cathodes of the output tubes.

History:

When I first tested the amp I had similar issues as described above at lower volumes around 5 and 6. I re-soldered all the wiring in my speaker cabinet because it was suspect. I also replaced the jack and re-wired the outputs in the amp. This eliminated the issues at volumes below 8, and I did not test above 8, so I thought I had eliminated all the issues. Afterwards I started tweaking carefully. I applied Richie's tweaks, replaced 150 series mallory caps with polypropylenes, found 68K input resistors were making some noise at higher volumes (with no signal applied) and replaced them, using chop-sticks moved a few wires to get even cleaner. All these tweaks were to my liking and generally reduced noise so that the amp is almost totally quiet up to 8 on the volumes. It was initially that way up to 7. So the changes were an improvement in tones and reduced noise. Then I changed the rectifier tube from a GZ34 to the 5U4GB. This I also liked. It changed the tone response and I found it reduced voltages slightly as well. Being very happy I decided to see what she would do. So I cranked the volumes up to 9, and found the "poping, chirping" problem again. However it is not as severe as before resoldering the speaker cabinet, etc.

Here are some more characteristics to be aware of.

1) It happens on both channels.

2) Feedback on definitely reduces the issue.

3) It does not happen with light strumming (but I have not cranked to 10 yet).

4) It is worse using the GZ34, (which also increases voltages).

5) It never happens at volumes 7 and below, no matter how hard I strum. A humbucker did not seem to make it any worse.

6) Lower cords, especially the E and A power cords make it worse.

7) I'm not seeing any issues with red tubes, arcing, etc. They seem to be fine and my output tube voltages indicate moderate idle tube current, well within specs for the EL84 JJs I am using.

8) Reducing volume on the guitar eliminates the issue.

9) I've checked tube seating and they seem to be fine.

10) I was thinking loose connection, but can't find one.

Here are some questions.

1) Does this sound like "Blocking Distortion". I read up on that where they say it's a "farting" sound. It dosen't sound like a fart to me and the only gas in the room came from either me or the dog, I can't tell which! 8O

2) Could it be my V3 voltages?

3) What about the volatges on the output tubes? Aren't those high? JJ specs say 300 max, but other posts say it's OK to go over 300v on them.

4) Has anyone ever seen this happen, caused by an impedance selector switch?

5) Could it it be a bad pot, like maybe the main volume?

The amp is certaintly playable, and very nice around 7. However, I'd like it to play properly all the way up to full volumes. I'm stumped.

Thanks for any ideas...
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Post by NewGuitar »

bump
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Post by fightingzero »

Man that is a crazy issue. It can all get so confusing so quickly too, just because of the changes that you made. If you had a standard build with this issue, it would be easier to troubleshoot. Since you have tons changed, it's def. harder. My methodology (not necessarily right, to each their own :) ) is to get all of the bugs out of it, and then start making mods/tweaks to it one at a time. I typically try EVERYTHING out like master vol, treb, etc. I max all of them and try a bunch of different settings just to see what I get. That's just me.. others might call me crazy. lol (but that's what guitars and that dang devil music will do to ya! lol)

-Scott
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Post by NewGuitar »

From email that was lost...
Plexi replied to "High Volume Distortion Problem" :

Can you post some pics.. are you useing the choke or a resistor across the cap can stages.
See attached to this post. I'm using the resistor.
From what you are describing.. it could be a lead dress issue.
And a pic would be nice. a few places in this amp..and 18s,or any amps along these lines are critical to not having these things happen.

This amp should not be having problems. Sometimes only a few things might need to be done. The lead dress to the EL84s.. and or the plate wires to the PI.. is where i would look first.

I have also seen this happen when using the choke..and it not happen when useing the resistor in place of the choke.

Richie
Yeah. I'm thinking the same. My tubes are turned so that pin one is tangent to the edge of the board. This was suggested by another builder who thought the crimped edges of the tube internals should be 90 degrees to the back of the chassis to increase heat disipation. It also made the heater wires short, direct, and eliminated any other tube wires running close to them. All wire crossings are 90 degrees. It's hard to tell from the pic. I'll post another.
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Post by NewGuitar »

All those Mallory 150s have been replaced with better caps...
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Post by veets »

Maybe not much help, but does this happen when the amp is sitting on the bench and the speaker cabinet is sitting on the floor? I'm trying to see if it is a mechanical / vibration related problem. Also, what preamp tubes are you using? Have you tried subbing in other tubes? The fact that it happens at it's worst with the low E and the A string may suggest that something is running out of steam somewhere as these bass notes require more power, but I'd look at mechanical issues first.
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Post by NewGuitar »

Thanks Richie and everyone who has replied.

I tried putting the amp on the floor away from the speakers. No change. I'm using 12AX7 JJ preamp tubes. I have not made any changes since the first post above. The amp still plays the same as described above.

See new pics attached. Note the following.

1) My wiring color is not standard, so please pay attention to the pins.

2) The tube sockets are also turned 90 degrees counter clockwise compared to the layout posted here on 18 watt. (Some one suggested I do this for heat disipation. I'm now regretting I listnened to them! The posted layout appears to be cleaner/better.)

3) I ran wires for the OT to the tag boards in order to reduce the amount or wire running all the way to the sockets.

4) Notice the PI leads to pins 1 & 6 are twisted and all leads run under the board. I tried to take pics so things will be clear.

I'm afraid to change things, but obviously I have to to get this fixed. I'm just not sure what to change.

Thanks very much for any help.
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Post by NewGuitar »

Additional pics of output tubes sockets...
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Post by NewGuitar »

...and two more...
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Post by allynmey »

New Guitar, what Output tubes are you using? I made the same build, used the same mods, and had pretty much the same problem you do. I bought a GDS standup tranny and fired it up at ampfest for the first time(I ran out of time the day before). It sounded good but started popping and buzzing and sizzling above 4 or 5. I put in some NOS Polems and it got ten times worse. I didn't check the voltages until I got home. The B+ was 365VDC! 8O Apparently, Graydon uses solid state with his and a dropping resistor. :roll: Here's what I did and I am in sonic bliss.

1. 5U4 instead of GZ34. Dropped the voltages.
2. Put in Russian 6P14P el-84 equiv. (They take higher voltages).

The amp doesn't pop or sizzle. I still have 2 more Ritchie mods to do and will report back. The amp has INCREDIBLE touch sensitivity. It sounds like a Marshall 100 SLP with a Treble boost. No fartiness at all on the bottom end. Of course, I like the tone stack lifted and no NFB.

The tubes make the difference. NOS cork sniffin' (sgt O's language) tube cannot handle this circuit. I'm sure they will with lower voltage, but for now Ruskie military tubes is all I can get in this wild horsie!

Hope that helps.

Allynmey
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Post by NewGuitar »

Allynmey, thanks for the great reply. :) Your experience sounds a lot like mine.

I'm using JJ EL84s.

I also switched to the 5U4 (from the GZ34 as noted above). This lowered the voltages like it did for you. My voltages with the GZ34 were 351. The 5U4 reduced the problem to what is described initially on this post. My voltages are now around 326 as posted above. The problem was definitely worse using the GZ34 and 350 volts. :(

You might note that the JJs are rated at 300 max. (See attached.) Some folks say you can push them higher, but I expect the manufacturer had a reason for publishing 300 as the max. (Maybe some batches were/are OK over 300.)

I've thought of switching to another tube brand, and was about to order some NOS. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll stay away from NOS for now.

What are your voltages now?
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Post by Plexi »

hmmm that speaker hookup ,or wires to the switch,anyway to make a different run on those to the switch. looks like they are laying on the input to the EL84s. Just wondering too,why the 5w 8.2k resistors to pin 2 of the EL84s. These only need to be 1/2 watt. I would also remove the terminal thing..and just make the hookups straight to the place they need to go,and not at junctions on that strip.

Also.. i have built a few of these,all running GZ34.. no hums,spits,sputters or crackles..cranked and everything to the max,and even the boost bypass pulled. Just want to let you know,this amp should work like this.

Richie
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Post by allynmey »

Hi Ritchie, the problem with my 36 was not the circuit but the tranny I bought. The standup GDS was giving me 365VDC B+!!! Changing the recto and tubes was easier temporarily than ripping out and getting a new tranny. The amp now sounds great with incredible touch sensitivity.

Allynmey
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Post by Plexi »

Well that is good news.. :)

Richie
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Post by NewGuitar »

Thanks for all the support guys.
hmmmm..."
That's a good point. This amp started out as my first ever build. It's now a rebuild of the first build with significant progress, thanks to this site and a lot of research I did after the first attempt.

I moved the white wire input to the EL84s further away from the OT outputs. I also moved the wires going to the 9 pins away from the number 3 pins (EL84s). I found I had the plate and cathode wires running almost parallel for a short distance to the EL84s closest to the power supply. I repositioned these wires. These changes reduced the problem noticably. This also eliminated what I thought was a scratchy main volume pot between 1 and zero. The pot is totally clean now. (Or maybe a piece of dirt fell out of it while I was making changes! :) )

The more I work and learn about this amp the more I realize it should follow the current posted layout almost exactly. OK, so I'm a certified DA! :oops: My trouble is I drilled the origional chassis so that the tubes are rotated according to the heat disipation theory someone told me. And I placed the OT as far away from the PT as reasonably possible according to more info that may not have been the best. I probably should have positioned the OT so that the speaker wires are clear of the EL84 inputs, and positioned the sockets as shown in the layout.

I used the 5 watt resistors because I had them, and they're wire wound (less noise according to various experts like Aiken). I realize 5 watts is over kill, but heck they should never smoke! veryhappy

I've already drilled holes to reposition the OT. I might rotate the output tube sockets, rewire, and post results. This chassis may look like swiss cheese when I'm done, but what the heck... It may be a while because I can't play when the amp is down. I really like playing it. I can't crank it up anyway unless the kids and wife are away.

Richie - Thanks for the verification regarding the GZ34 and the whole amp in general. Are you using the choke in most of your builds? I've seen other posts indicating the choke can have issues similar to what I've experienced. So far I think my issues have mostly been layout and lead dress. Do you have any comments on these issues regarding the choke?

Regards...

Hutson
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Post by NewGuitar »

Hi Ritchie, the problem with my 36 was not the circuit but the tranny I bought. The standup GDS was giving me 365VDC B+!!!
I'm using the Heyboer transformers. My B+ was around 350+ with the GZ34 (maybe more, can't remember for sure, but definitely over 350).

Allynmey - I'm gonna try those tubes you used and see what happens as an experiment before I do surgery. Who sells them?

This is almost like an art... at least much more than I thought it would be when I first started buying my first parts a year ago.
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Post by allynmey »

New guitar, email me at allynmey at aol dot com

Allynmey
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Post by Plexi »

I've used both..and the Trex has been running find for quite a while with a choke.. But..that amp is running slightly sess voltage.. the PT was bumped up after that amp was built. But i have used the new PT with a couple builds with no problems.
I think Nik posted some good info..if useing the choke to use 1.5k screen grid resistors.. kinda flip flops the voltage screen sections and corrects voltages to the screens if useing the choke.
I have been useing the resistor.. plus its about 25.00 cheaper..:)
And never had a problem using it.

We may have to add that.. if you use the choke..to use the 1.5k for screen grid resistors.. if not using the choke..just use the values on the layout. also some other info..

A 5V4GA may be better in place of the 5U4GB..
Here is some data..

5U4GB -voltage drop 50 V @ 275 mA
3 amp heater current

5V4GA Voltage Drop @ Current 25 V @ 175 mA
2 amp heater current



Richie
Last edited by Plexi on Mon 02/13/06 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by NewGuitar »

Thanks for the replies.

Regarding...
A 5V4GA may be better in place of the 5U4GB..
Here is some data..

5U4GB -voltage drop 50 V @ 275 mA
3 amp heater current

5V4GA Voltage Drop @ Current 25 V @ 175 mA
2 amp heater current
Does this mean the 5V4GA will have a higher ouput voltage compared to the 5U4GB? Also, what happens if we use a 5AR4?

Check out this link for specs...

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting. ... fiers.html

Sombody might say the GZ34 is the same as a 5AR4. I may be splitting hairs but they are not necessarily exactly the same. See attached pic of them side by side.
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Post by NewGuitar »

the Trex has been running find for quite a while with a choke.. But..that amp is running slightly sess voltage.. the PT was bumped up after that amp was built. But i have used the new PT with a couple builds with no problems.
What voltages do you have in the T-Rex?

What was the PT bumped to? Are you refering to the Heyboers referenced on other threads?

I bought the Heyboers last year about this time of year. I got them as referenced on other threads. The output from the power transformer is 606 peak-to-peak. (Both ends of that winding are showing 303 AC volts to ground.) That's 26 volts higher going into the rectifier tube than what is shown on the schematic (580 volts).

Do you guys think this might be part of the issue?
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