Do tubes make the amp?

brain_wreck · Post by **brain_wreck** » Tue 01/09/07 11:28 am

I have my own opinion on this but I'm curious to know what you guys (gals?) think. Ever played an amp that just doesn't cut it without magic tubes?

Are there any new tubes that equal the best nos stuff? Or, anything getting close?

Last question(s). I have no idea or opinion on this one. Where's the money best spent? Power or preamp? Is it amp specific in your experience?

Alexo · Post by **Alexo** » Tue 01/09/07 11:41 am

The circuit is what makes the amp, the tubes only let the circuit rise to its full potential.

Are there any new tubes that equal the best nos stuff? Or, anything getting close?

Nope, and yes, JJ power tubes can come kinda close to NOS, their 6V6's anyway. But that is a matter of opinion, some folks hate them, some folks love Ei, some folks love JJ preamp tubes, etc.. You really just have to see what your own preferences are.

jckid66 · Post by **jckid66** » Tue 01/09/07 11:42 am

basicly good tubes = good sound

brain_wreck · Post by **brain_wreck** » Tue 01/09/07 11:57 am

Something that really got my gears turning: A friend gave me a crappy old Art Tube MP mic preamp. It's a starved plate deal, i.e., the tube isn't supposed to have much effect on the sound. The thing is that the particular 12ax7 in that crappy Tube MP had a major effect on the sound. Sonically, it was still overly distorted and noisy but that tube really added alot of swirl and 3d quality to the sound. What I'm saying is the preamp still sounded like crap but the dimensional quality that the particular 12ax7 added made it very hard for me to unplug from that thing. Magic.

Same deal with an amp he had. He put a nos 12ax7 in the amp that really added some magic. The amp just wasn't worth playing without that particular tube in the preamp.

rectifier · Post by **rectifier** » Tue 01/09/07 12:05 pm

Tubes play a big part in your amp's sound, but I think speakers make just as big or even bigger difference. I like the Ei elite EL84s as much as most NOS EL84s (with a few exceptions), and the new TungSol 12AX7's are pretty good sounding for new production. Your money will best be spent on quality preamp tubes as they will change your amp's sound more than the power tubes will. Look for some good deals on eBay (be sure to check the seller's feedback before you bid) for some NOS or used old stock Mullard, Telefunken, RCA, etc. preamp tubes and you'll be better off than new production in my opinion.

brain_wreck · Post by **brain_wreck** » Tue 01/09/07 12:23 pm

Thanks for the info rectifier. I remember the owner of the amp I spoke of mentioning that he went thru some trouble finding the right speakers. I guess it all has to work together for true magic. Some times I wonder how anyone ever gets their sound together considering all the variables involved.

Sweetwood · Post by **Sweetwood** » Tue 01/09/07 12:30 pm

i found some telefunken's at some point in time and they had serious mojo. that being said, i've never found mojo like that again, but i can't imagine paying nos prices for a 'disposable' products/components. i think the new tung-sol 12AX7's are fantastic - real clear and sparkly. they compare to the old rca's and other's IMO.

Mojocat · Post by **Mojocat** » Tue 01/09/07 12:57 pm

brain_wreck wrote:Some times I wonder how anyone ever gets their sound together considering all the variables involved.

Or conversely why we even worry about all this BS... I'm a terrible tone snob nowadays, searching and refining every minute detail of the signal chain, but I've got recordings of when I was young and totally igonorant, playing through a SolidState amp with a distortion pedal... and my lead tone sounds frickin' fantastic. Makes me wonder...

Alexo · Post by **Alexo** » Tue 01/09/07 1:40 pm

Something that really got my gears turning: A friend gave me a crappy old Art Tube MP mic preamp. It's a starved plate deal, i.e., the tube isn't supposed to have much effect on the sound. The thing is that the particular 12ax7 in that crappy Tube MP had a major effect on the sound.

Well yeah, I have a Behringer Tube MP mic pre and it is a horrbile piece of garbage, although it does have a ton of gain and is relatively un-noisy... Anyway, I stuck a Mullard in there to see if it helped at all, well, it did a little, sounded arguably better, so there was an improvement but it still doesn't hold a candle to my API or Grace preamps, which don't have any tubes at all but do have great circuit topology. Same with guitar amps, putting better tubes in will definetly improve any amp, but I wouldn't say they "make the amp." Believe me, I've done experiments where I have wound up designing horrible sounding circuits and sticking fancy tubes in them wasn't any help. A really good ciruit, i.e. the 18, will sound damn good with even crappy tubes but will just knock your socks off with a full boat of Mullards, RCA, etc..

kyoungsteadt · Post by **kyoungsteadt** » Tue 01/09/07 1:47 pm

brain_wreck wrote:Some times I wonder how anyone ever gets their sound together considering all the variables involved.

It takes years my friend.

SpentMusic · Post by **SpentMusic** » Tue 01/09/07 1:48 pm

If you use quality parts throught the amp and put in a speaker this is equal to the type or tone of the music you play then small changes here and there are noticable. A harsh preamp tube can really stick out in V1 or other places depending on the circuit and the amount of gain the amp has. Basically if the tube is the weak link then putting in a good tube will make a big difference.

I still think that the person playing is the biggest issue (I know this from personnel experience - ME LOL). I can make the best amp in the world sound like any other amp I play. Why, cause the way I play is the way I play. You want to make the biggest change practice. EVH, EC, DG, PT etc.... can all make any (and I mean any) amp sound good because they first learned how to play. Harsh but true.

Post by **zaphod_phil** » Tue 01/09/07 2:17 pm

jckid66 wrote:basicly good tubes = good sound

Only, if the amp is designed and built well in the first place. Otherwise it's like guilding a turd.

Alexo wrote:The circuit is what makes the amp, the tubes only let the circuit rise to its full potential.

Yes, that's the truth.

rectifier wrote:Tubes play a big part in your amp's sound, but I think speakers make just as big or even bigger difference.

Also true! I actually believe the speaker(s) and OT provide the foundation of the amp's tone (assuming a reasonably decent design). Then the tubes come right after that.

Almost all the tubes I use are NOS. JJ 6V6s are one of the only exceptions.

dartanion · Post by **dartanion** » Tue 01/09/07 3:19 pm

All these things matter, player, circuit, design, etc. I do think that some common sense comes to play as well. If it sounds good, use it regardless of the cost or snob factor.

I personally have found certain amps to be finicky about what tubes are in it. I just end up swapping tubes around until I find a compliment that I am happy with.

kd · Post by kd » Tue 01/09/07 3:53 pm

I use mostly nos tubes in my amps. The only reason I can afford them is sarge sells a very reasonable prices and I've plundered a couple of organs that had some great tubes in them. Some of the new manufactured tubes I've tried and liked are JJ 6V6 and Shuguang shortbottle blackplate 6L6WGC distributed by TAD, Magic Parts and others. The new Shuguang EL 34 seems to be getting good reviews, even sarge likes 'em. Don't care for the JJ EL84 or preamp tubes.

I believe that in an 18 watt amp you need good high quality pre and power tubes for it be at it's best.

Ken

rectifier · Post by **rectifier** » Tue 01/09/07 4:02 pm

zaphod_phil wrote:Only, if the amp is designed and built well in the first place. Otherwise it's like guilding a turd.

brain_wreck · Post by **brain_wreck** » Tue 01/09/07 5:18 pm

Mojocat wrote:Or conversely why we even worry about all this BS...

Because there ain't nothing else in the world like playing a kick ass guitar thru a kick ass amp.

I'll take that any day over sex, booze, what you got?

Alexo · Post by **Alexo** » Tue 01/09/07 7:08 pm

...sex?

...really?

kyoungsteadt · Post by **kyoungsteadt** » Tue 01/09/07 7:16 pm

I'm with you, sex first guitar later...

veets · Post by **veets** » Wed 01/10/07 2:06 am

And sex is like NOS tubes---you don't know how good you've got it till you aren't getting any.....
New tubes are crap. I'll buy half burned out RCA's before I'll take newly manufacturd tubes for free.

lagerdog · Post by **lagerdog** » Wed 01/10/07 2:55 am

This all sounds like an urban myth here... NOS... You are not guaranteed any kind of consistency out of anything there... kind of like the Hendrix Fuzzfaces where what's his name played through hundreds to find the three or four... Tubes are related to amps like bears to bacon... waste your money on whatever, but it all boils down to more than people want to analyse... I am dumbfounded that the EE types haven't figured this out "just because". Sure it is a big deal, but c'mon!!! Tubes (whoever) have their own characteristic to match to the circuit... there is no "magical tube"... Check your bias... your "cheap" tubes might want to run a little hotter/colder to sound where "you" want them... I think ( and I've thought this before) on my next version of my "PCB"

version of JA's TMB I'll put in a trimmer pot to fiddle with so you can dial it in just right... It's all about getting the right voltages and currents to the right places and see what happens! If tubes deviate from the "golden" mark, change resistors or caps??? I don't think anyone here has figured it out... It will be work, but don't make a mechanical engineer who has taught himself electronics do it for some of the EE experts here! Or do I have to??? Egads...

All said, Sarge is the guy to fall back on when you can't figure this out...

Blah blah blah... there is no "magic" tube for your amp that you can order off the shelf/Ebay...

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Do tubes make the amp?

Do tubes make the amp?