36 watter vs. Vox Night Train

[gpforet]

This is a question for all you who are running a 36 watter:

I'm playing a Dean Soltero and Mexican strat and was really leaning toward building a 36 watt. Last week I had the chance to spend some time playing my Soltero thru a Vox Night Train and was totally knocked out. More than anything, I liked the Night Train's ability to give me controlled string feedback. The other think that I drooled over was the chimy clean tones and how smoothly I could get the amp to break up into warm overdrive tones by increasing my pick attack and/or rolling on more guitar volume. I play mostly country, blues, and some modern/classic rock (think Aerosmith, Kansas, Zep) so I don't need the super saturated metal distortion.

This amp is primarily for recording but may, from time to time, be used for live gigs in bars.

Price-wise, I'd be spending about the same building a 36 watter vs. buying a Vox Night Train. I know I'd be getting more headroom with the 36 (albiet only about 3 db) for clean tones at higher volumes.

Has anyone compared their 36 watter to the Night Train in regards to tone and would like to share their comments/observations?

I'd like to make a decision on this in the next week or two. HHHHEEEEELLLPP!

Thanks

[WaZaK]

I liked the Night Train's ability to give me controlled string feedback. The other think that I drooled over was the chimy clean tones and how smoothly I could get the amp to break up into warm overdrive tones by increasing my pick attack and/or rolling on more guitar volume. I don't need the super saturated metal distortion.

My 18 Watt Lite IIb with VVR and PPIMV does all that ........

Plus it's ideal for recording. But if you are worried about using an 18 watt for bar gigging, you can always tell those at the front to back off a bit!

[doctornorbert]

My 18 watt MarVox (Vox AC30 top boost and normal preamps running into the 18 watt PI and output) seems to get those tones, at least judging from the YouTube clips.

You could do a 36 watt T-rex (Trainwreck preamp, 36 watt otherwise) and I bet that would get you in the ballpark of what you are hearing.

[PaulBlandford]

I have the Night Train, and I've built and played AC30s which is kind of close in terms of power output to the 36 watt, admittedly I've yet to make the 36-watt. The Night Train is a noisy little amp, but lovable with it and plenty loud for non-ridiculous gigs. The benefit is in being able to turn it up and not hurt anyone. Turned up, controlling everything from the guitar is where all those tones, timbres come from in your description... and yes it does all that and more. I do not think you'd be able to get a 36 watt to work in the same manner unless you have some kind of attenuation. But then that's defeating the object. The Night Train was designed by Tony Bruno who if he don't know it, can't do it, it can't be known or done. I have a friend who runs a Matchless DC30 on the 15 watt setting and he said in the last decade he's never gigged with it on the 30 watt setting. Not saying the Night Train is the same as the 15 watt mode of the DC30, but class of operation and power output are the same. The night train is a hoot...

-Paul

[martyfriedman86]

I don't know why buy i find the night train to be a very harsh sounding amp.
I always prefer a little darker sounding amps, and I absolutely love the 18 watt normal channel.

[jaysg]

I have the Night Train, and I've built and played AC30s which is kind of close in terms of power output to the 36 watt, [clip] The night train is a hoot...

How is the construction - flimsy, solid, in between? PCB or chassis mounted sockets?

[PaulBlandford]

How is the construction - flimsy, solid, in between? PCB or chassis mounted sockets?

A little unruly in terms of actual layout but very stout. The chassis is solid the cage is as good as the THD amps The PCB is medium/think, not huge but substantial. All sockets are on the PCB. As it's a head, well treated it will last a long time before there are any problems I would think. It's one of those amps I took the lid off, and actually ended up doing nothing... it's fine as it is. The only fault I can find is a slight loop/hum that rises as the guitars volume is rolled off. But all my friends (both of them) think I'm mad and either can't or don't want to hear it.

-Paul

[doctornorbert]

What I want to know is what is the Night Train's preamp circuit. Since it has 2 12ax7s, one of which must be the PI, I'm guessing it has two cascaded gain stages much like the superlite TMB. No CF like you'd find in a top boost.

[PaulBlandford]

What I want to know is what is the Night Train's preamp circuit. Since it has 2 12ax7s, one of which must be the PI, I'm guessing it has two cascaded gain stages much like the superlite TMB. No CF like you'd find in a top boost.

People are saying it's the same as a Tiny Terror, which I thought was AC15 front end, but I had that one too and the Vox outshines/out-classes it by myriads.

-Paul

[zaphod_phil]

More than anything, I liked the Night Train's ability to give me controlled string feedback. The other think that I drooled over was the chimy clean tones and how smoothly I could get the amp to break up into warm overdrive tones by increasing my pick attack and/or rolling on more guitar volume. I play mostly country, blues, and some modern/classic rock (think Aerosmith, Kansas, Zep) so I don't need the super saturated metal distortion.

Just about any of the 18W or 36W amps from this site will give you the chime to smooth breakup. A higher-gain TMB version of one of these amps, with the Marshall Plexi style preamp, would be good for the controlled string feedback. Most of the 36Ws around are TMBs anyway. BTW here's a pretty good YouTube clip of a lower gain, non-TMB 36W Lite II - www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvcDYBOAC2E

People are saying it's the same as a Tiny Terror, which I thought was AC15 front end, but I had that one too and the Vox outshines/out-classes it by myriads.

The Tiny Terror has a pretty horrible preamp, that's not much like an AC15's at all. Two gain stages running pretty much flat out, so that it mostly runs dirty, with little clean range. Also some of the stock component values in that amp make the distortion sound somewhat harsh to fizzy - no smooth breakup there! All the people I've come across who rave about the TT have never tried an 18W. I once helped a guy clone a TT with tweaked component values to help sweeten up the amp's tone a bit.

I don't know why buy i find the night train to be a very harsh sounding amp.

If it really does have the Tiny Terror's preamp, that would make sense. I just sincerely hope that it doesn't.

What I want to know is what is the Night Train's preamp circuit. Since it has 2 12ax7s, one of which must be the PI, I'm guessing it has two cascaded gain stages much like the superlite TMB. No CF like you'd find in a top boost.

Yes, that would certainly seem to be the case. The SuperLite TMB has attenuation between the gain stages, as well as TMB tone controls after the 2nd stage which also attenuate the signal. This helps keep the SuperLite's gain manageable, as well as providing a lot of flexibility.

[gpforet]

This place is great. From what I'm hearing, I can expect at least as good if not better from building my own tmb.

I'm still leaning toward the 36 watt for a little more headroom.

I've got Richie's v5 schematic, but no layout. Anyone wanna give me some suggestions there?

I'm also looking for sources for the transformer set. There seems to be significant cost differences from different suppliers and I'm wondering how dramatic the tone difference is between a $150 dollar set of tranformers vs. a $250 set.

When I auditioned the NT, I played thru a 4x12 marshall cab which seems like overkill. If I build a 2x12 cab, should I go with the same speakers for both, or different to get more variety in micing the cab for recording?

Speaker suggestions?

Thanks again for all the feedback (no pun intended)

[DaveW]

Found some internal pictures here


http://media.photobucket.com/image/vox+ ... x_nt_1.jpg

[rjgtr]

I personally think a 36watt with a half power switch would just about eat anything else alive. I find that an 18watt is plenty loud and the extra tubes would take care of the louder gigs.

If you want old school kinds of tones I think any of the normal TMB preamps will do what you want. I can't think of one production amp that sounds anywhere as good as a properly hand made one. The 36/18 watt excells at the "use the guitar volume" school of playing.

For transformers, I generally like Heyboer for 18watts. GDS, Trinity and others have good sets at decent prices. The Mercurys are good, but very pricey in sngle set pricing.

I think the new Vox stuff is cute, but you can build a better amp.

[conger]

Found some internal pictures here


http://media.photobucket.com/image/vox+ ... x_nt_1.jpg

There is a lot of .1uF capacitors in the Night Train. Actually there are alot of capacitors full stop in that amp.

[doctornorbert]

I think the new Vox stuff is cute, but you can build a better amp.

+1 on all that.

That guts shot is hard to interpret, with the PC board and with it not being clear which tube sockets are where. I stick by my guess on the preamp.

I wonder what all those 0.1 uF caps are for, sort of big for coupling caps.

gpforet, for speakers 2x12 is a popular speaker configuration and there are many good ways to go, and many threads here discussing that. I personally like Eminence speakers.

[WaZaK]

I'm wondering how dramatic the tone difference is between a $150 dollar set of tranformers vs. a $250 set.

The consensus of opinion (on this site anyway) seems to be that providing you buy from a reputable transformer outlet, price has nothing whatsoever to do with tone!

Have a read at the current "Heyboer vs ValvePower" transformer thread. Apart from confirming my opinion that MM is "average and grossly overpriced". I found the thread extremely enlightening!
(And I still wish Steve did multi primary transformers! Lol.)

[conger]

What I want to know is what is the Night Train's preamp circuit. .

People are saying it's the same as a Tiny Terror, which I thought was AC15 front end, but I had that one too and the Vox outshines/out-classes it by myriads.

Someone has drawn up a schematic after tracing out the circuit and uploading it on the Music-Electronics Schematics Wanted forum. According to that schematic it is a Gain stage - TMB - Gain stage - Gain stage - Cathodyne PI - cathode biased (120R/220uF) pair of EL84's.

[zaphod_phil]

I just read something in August's issue of Premier Guitar that says the Night Train's preamp was inspired by the Trainwreck Express. So that would make sense, as the Express preamp has the 3 gain stages. It probably also explains the reference to a Train in the amp's name. However it also means the Night Train has very little to do with traditional Vox amps, let alone the Marshall 18W.

You could do a 36 watt T-rex (Trainwreck preamp, 36 watt otherwise) and I bet that would get you in the ballpark of what you are hearing.

You were the closest to the truth!

[drew]

Schematic: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9095

[doctornorbert]

It's neat the way they do the PI with one triode stage, leaving three stages available for the preamp. I wonder how this might work for an 18 watt, and if we'd be getting too far away from the original's tone.

This way in a standard 18 watt chassis, one could have an entire tube to use for a parallel-triode normal channel, an EF86 or whatever, and then have three triodes for a TMB, Trainwreckish channel, or even nick the Nighttrain's front end.