18 watt too quiet.

[pezed]

Sounds insane i know.. but the 18 watt just isn't cutting it anymore, running through a marshall 4x12 cab. Its fine until an outdoor gig, then it just doesn't cut through. I'm sure this has been asked a million times before, but i couldn't find the answer i was looking for.
Really love the 18watt TMB sound but just need a bit more UMPH. Is the 36 watt going to be able to deliver or is it time to move to EL34?

Thanks!

[rjgtr]

The 36watt sounds like what you need. What you get is a bunch more headroom and punch. When cranked it still gets that great 18watt distortion. I think of the difference to be that of a 100watt SLP vs a plexi 50watt.

I think a 36watt power section with a 1/2 power switch to lift two of the EL84s is a very practical gigging amp. If the venue is small, use the half power 18watt setting. If you need a little more - go 36 watts. You could even add the Vajra's PP/SE control and get down to 5watts for small studio gigs or practice.

As for the preamp, you can use just about any of the 18watt preamp variations with the 36watt output stage. To get a 36watt amp, the only important differences from an 18watt are the beefier transformers and power tube bias cap and resistor.

[PaulBlandford]

What speakers are in the 4x12? Big cabs can be a hinderance in cutting through depending on the actual speakers. I love pushing big cabs but your amp can be wasting a lot of energy pushing useless bottom end, which will not get you through the mix. Striking a balance between having bottom end to make it feel good, and enough mid– to upper-midrange presence is tricky. A big cab with 100db speakers will get you further down that road. The G12H30 and greenbacks and AlNiCo's etc are lovely but in a big (or loud) band they don't work unless you are reinforcing. I play in a band which switches off between two drummers, one is loud the other is exceptionally loud, I don't have a problem cutting through with my Mesa (vertical) 2x12 with Brithish V30's, and I know my 18 watt amp is only averagely loud.

Also how much sag are you getting? Again sag is nice but will not help you get heard.

In my opinion the standard 18 watt design while electronically inspired is not ideal for playing in a loud band. It can be made to fit that bill by going solid state rec., having slightly higher voltages, and having "better" speakers than what they used to make 50 years ago.

I'm sure the 36 watt is way cool, but if you love the 18 as you say you do I wouldn't give up on it.

How about a smaller cab with 2 speakers? It will promote less cancellation and you can even get it up off the ground in some venues... or turn it sideways or better get/make a vertical 2 x 12.

-Paul

[pezed]

Thanks for the replies. A smaller cab would be nice and I've considered it, but not sure if it would help much. Yes the 4x12 is a standard marshall with G12T-75W speakers. It has a lot of low end, but I need that. This amp is used in a rock band. I don't really feel the sound of the amp needs to change at all, it sounds great and doesn't sound strained either, it just hits a wall where it can't go any louder. By the time midnight rolls around and the crowd is worked up the amp is half way up and as loud as it will go, any louder just makes it more compressed. At the end of the night there is always a guitar guy coming up asking about the amp and tone.

As far as sag goes, it doesn't really have a lot, I'm using a JJ rectifier which seems to be pretty stiff. I've tried going with solid state rectification and didn't really notice much of a change in the amp other than the voltages went higher than I liked.

I just really hate to go the way of EL34 or any other big tubes, for some reason i've never really liked their sound when compared to EL84s.

[zaphod_phil]

Yes the 4x12 is a standard marshall with G12T-75W speakers.

Those aren't very efficient speakers at 97dB/W@1m. Eminence's equivalent, the Man O War, will give you around 102dB. Their equivalent of the G12T-65, the Tonespotter, is rated for 100dB. These are both lead guitar speakers, which will cut through real well. The V30s Paul uses generally sound pretty harsh with EL84 amps, but in a loud gig will also cut through quite well.

You might also want to consider using these in a detuned 4X12, so that you only need two speakers, and leave two holes in the 4X12 empty. The somewhat wasted sound from the back of the speakers will then come out through those holes, and there's a lot of folks who swear by the tone of these detuned cabs. For more on this see the attached inside shot and these threads:
http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?name= ... c&p=178102
http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?name= ... pic&t=3009
http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?name= ... ic&t=11735
http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?name= ... ic&t=14785
http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?name= ... ic&t=14934
http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?name= ... c&p=141191
http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?name= ... ic&t=18400

I just really hate to go the way of EL34 or any other big tubes, for some reason i've never really liked their sound when compared to EL84s.

There's nothing like the crisp definition and grind of overdriven EL84s. I think with a 36W and more efficient speakers you should be well in business.

BTW I hope you're also micing your amp through the PA for crowd projection. The way I see it the sound coming out of the guitar amps' speakers is really only for stage volume.

[PaulBlandford]

I'd have to respectfully disagree about the V30's "harshness". I'd say they were an unforgiving speaker for sure and they feel "stiff" to a sloppy player (nothing wrong with sloppy), but there is nothing harsh about any of the amps and cabs I have them in. I find them punchy and powerful. I play 11-52 string set which is also a loud string coupled with DiMarzios Chopper T's in all my Teles which also throw down bigtime. The combination works. I have played guitars with 10s or even 9s through the same setup and there is a noticeable difference (drop) in volume and punch.

Also the V30 speaker is the speaker of choice of many well known boutique and mainstream manufacturers.

-Paul

[John_A]

I'd have to respectfully disagree about the V30's "harshness". ....
-Paul

I think this perception o the V30 comes from listening to them one their own, i.e. without a band, they certaily don't have that musical quality of a G12m especially clean and at low levels, but cranked up, in a band situation, especially a rock band, the V30's sound great and really cut through well.

[zaphod_phil]

I'd have to respectfully disagree about the V30's "harshness". I'd say they were an unforgiving speaker for sure and they feel "stiff" to a sloppy player (nothing wrong with sloppy), but there is nothing harsh about any of the amps and cabs I have them in. I find them punchy and powerful.

Maybe harsh isn't quite the right word, but many other players and builders also agree with me that, in combination with the brightness of an EL84 amp, the sound can end up being somewhat hard on the ears. And I certainly don't have any problem with either speakers or amps being stiff or punchy. Actually some of the amps I've built recently are very stiff and fast responding. I would additionally point out that V30s can sound fine with many non-EL84 amps. BTW I also know another person who has a Mezza cab loaded with old vintage British made V30s like yours in his studio, and they're certainly mellower and easier on the ears than a lot of newer production V30s. And he also has a hard time dealing with the suggestion that V30s could sound harsh with some types of amps.

Also the V30 speaker is the speaker of choice of many well known boutique and mainstream manufacturers.

Yes, I'm very much aware of that, and I'm pretty sure a lot of it's to do with the fact that Celestion are churning these out at a rate of thousands at huge OEM discount prices to amp manufacturers. So it's a kind of vicious circle effect, where the amp manufacturers use them because they get great prices on them, which in turn helps keep Celestions' V30 production levels high, thus helping to keep OEM prices low. It's also worth noting that many manufacturers similarly make a big deal of using Groove Tubes, and we all know that they're actually cheap and mediocre sounding valves that have simply been tested to death. But everyone apart from a few in the know, get this impression that they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

... but cranked up, in a band situation, especially a rock band, the V30's sound great and really cut through well.

I agree that they do cut through well. I still don't believe they sound all that great even then. In any case some of the Eminence speakers I mentioned also have great cut through and are somewhat louder than V30s too.

[Deadwood]

This is my solution to the so called "cutting through" syndrome. As long as you can hear the amp, that's all that matters, the PA will/should take care of the rest. Too many guys think their ears are in their a$$ I reckon.

[rjgtr]

RE: V30s - I use them a lot, especially with 6V6s and EL34s, but I don't like them with the 18watt. The 6V6s seem to work really well with the high mid emphasis of the V30, which shouldn't be surprising since they were designed for Marshall's only 6V6 based amp.

I did build an AC-30 style amp and liked a V30 in it, so go figure. It gave the right bite to it. I think it comes down to personal preference and like any other part choice it is what it contributes to the whole. For 18watts I like G12M-25s and G12H-30s, but others like Blues and even V30s. As much as I like Jensons in some amps, I'd never use them with a Marshall. So everyone can have an opinion - it's about individual taste.


On Groove Tubes - I think Phil is mischaracterizing what they sell. Not all Groove Tubes' tubes are mediocre, since they sell pretty much every new production brand out there. Their rebranding includes chinese Shuguang, Sovtek and other New Sensor, SED (winged C - real Svetlana) and JJs and lastly some of their own models they have made exclusively for them. They then test them and put their magic paint on them and charge big dollars. Some of these tubes are really nice - it's not Groove Tube's fault that all Guitar Center seems to carry is the Sovtek (which is generally mediocre) and Chinese (some are better than others). And before you brand all Chinese tubes as bad, the 12ax7s are great sounding and TAD has their very nice range of power tubes made in China as well as the very nice Shuguang KT-66 coming from there.

I don't peronally buy Groove Tubes, because I don't want to pay the extra cash for a matching process that isn't better than that of more reasonably priced tube suppliers. But I think we should be fair to them. Many of the tubes are great, if priced a little high.


As for Boutique choices - a lot of it is marketting. Cloth wire isn't superior to PVC, phenolic tube sockets aren't inferior to ceramic and carbon comp resistors are no better than metal film or carbon film types. You can make a case for using any of those choices. I have to laugh a little when people use carbon comp resistors in a plexi clone, because when you open a real one, you see a bunch of carbon film resistors. Beware of hype and test the stuff yourself.

[zaphod_phil]

This is my solution to the so called "cutting through" syndrome. As long as you can hear the amp, that's all that matters, the PA will/should take care of the rest. Too many guys think their ears are in their a$$ I reckon.

Very true! But I thought guitarists' ears were in their knees...

On Groove Tubes - I think Phil is mischaracterizing what they sell. Not all Groove Tubes' tubes are mediocre, since they sell pretty much every new production brand out there. Their rebranding includes chinese Shuguang, Sovtek and other New Sensor, SED (winged C - real Svetlana) and JJs and lastly some of their own models they have made exclusively for them.

Yeah, like their very unreliable Mullard 12AX7 clones.

They then test them and put their magic paint on them and charge big dollars. Some of these tubes are really nice - it's not Groove Tube's fault that all Guitar Center seems to carry is the Sovtek (which is generally mediocre) and Chinese (some are better than others).

Let's not go too far off topic here. I was merely using GT as an example of some of the product hype that amp manufacturers help promote, as has also to some extent been the case with V30s. They're not bad speakers for some kinds of amps like you said, but to see the marketing fanfare given by certain amp manufacturers, you'd think they had gold-plated cones. As I mentioned earlier I've also found that the older British V30s used by Mezza do seem to have a sweeter tone than more recently made ones. I'm not sure if it's just the vintage or that Mezza bought slightly tweaked versions from Celestion.

And before you brand all Chinese tubes as bad...

I would be the last person to do that.

[rjgtr]

Yeah, like their very unreliable Mullard 12AX7 clones.

That model didn't start out bad, but QC sure got bad. It's a shame too, because they sounded good. Sort of like Ei 12ax7s...And notice I didn't say their own models were good or bad.

I was merely using GT as an example of some of the product hype that amp manufacturers help promote, as has also to some extent been the case with V30s. They're not bad speakers for some kinds of amps like you said, but to see the marketing fanfare given by certain amp manufacturers, you'd think they had gold-plated cones. As I mentioned earlier I've also found that the older British V30s used by Mezza do seem to have a sweeter tone than more recently made ones. I'm not sure if it's just the vintage or that Mezza bought slightly tweaked versions from Celestion.

Manufacturers hype them because some players feel they are an upgrade to the cheap speakers some manufacturers normally use. I would rather see a V30 in an amp than some chinese speaker with a small magnet.

Again, it's personal opinion and preference. And sure I agree about hype, but Marshall hyped G12t-75s, which I personally find soul-less, but plenty of other people (like Jay Graydon) like them. Personal preference.

I own V30s of UK manufacture and those of the Chinese plant, and they sound pretty much identical. V30s are a speaker that needs to be broken in to get the smoothest tone. Mesa also used the Lead 80 as rebranded speaker in most of their combos for years.

If V-30s had gold plated cones they would be better, because they would cost more! At least for Celestion's bottom line, they'd be better!

My point was that everyone's entitled to their own opinions on what they like best.

[WaZaK]

(Its) an example of some of the product hype that amp manufacturers help promote

-which was basically my point in a recent post on transformers:

I guess it just find it tiresome when I hear Oooh's and Arrrrhs at the very mention of (brand xxxx) from some. It's almost like the Ap*le FanBoys. Lolol.

It would appear than amp builders are mere mortals - and are not immune from market forces.

My point was that everyone's entitled to their own opinions on what they like best.

+1
As long as it is not foisted onto others as being fact rather than their own humble opinion - as frequently happens on forums, etc.
But that's just my opinion.

[zaphod_phil]

I agree about hype, but Marshall hyped G12t-75s, which I personally find soul-less...

Same here. But they also seem to cut through well, although V30s are louder.

I own V30s of UK manufacture and those of the Chinese plant, and they sound pretty much identical. V30s are a speaker that needs to be broken in to get the smoothest tone.

I wonder of it's more than where they were made or being broken in. The Meza V30s I played through were exceptionally smooth sounding for V30s (although by no means did they sound like Greenbacks!).

My point was that everyone's entitled to their own opinions on what they like best.

Yes, and the more variety the better! However, there seems to be a very broad consensus that V30s and 18Ws generally aren't the best combination - and we all know you're one of those who say that. And in any case, there are louder speakers around which would probably prove more useful to pezed.

And while I was looking through previous posts on the subject of detuned cabs, here's another fascinating comment from tarzanalog about his detuned Marshall 1960A.

I have a Century Neo and a Man-O-War in a detuned 80's 1960A cab. LOUDEST... CAB... EVER!!!!!! Detuning gives you more volume to begin with, but then the crazy 102dB SPL of those speakers just pushes it over the edge. Even makes my Univalve way too loud...

[rjgtr]

Phil,

Were the Mesa V30's in a Mesa box? If so, the Mesa V30 smoothness might also have been the Mesa cabinet. They seem to have a little more volume in their cabinets and it seems to make the low end a lot bigger, which would deemphasize the high end.

[zaphod_phil]

Were the Mesa V30's in a Mesa box? If so, the Mesa V30 smoothness might also have been the Mesa cabinet. They seem to have a little more volume in their cabinets and it seems to make the low end a lot bigger, which would deemphasize the high end.

Yes, it's a fairly old Meza cab. So far I've suspected that they buy their V30s tweaked, but you may be right that it's something about the cab design.

[rjgtr]

I like to build my combo and open-back cabinets a little deeper, 12 inches instead of 9. That seems to help the V30s sound bigger. I also like to mount the V30s from the rear, instead of from the front. That seems to help too.

[PaulBlandford]

The British V30 is held together with nuts and bolts. The Chinese V30 is held together with glue. For me— end of comparison, regardless of tone.

I have British G12T75's too in a 1936 cab I have tried them in the Mesa cab. They have a scooped midrange where the V30 has a pronounced midrange. The V30 does not have less bottom end as a lot of folks have told me... simply put, that is flat out wrong. I have gone through an embarrasing number of speakers including Golds, Blues, G12H30, G12M, G12H, Herritage, Jensen, Eminence, The THD speakers... and they all sound lovely, with all my amps. However having spent the last ten years playing three or four nights each week in rooms that vary from 50-to-200 seats, up to being eight foot off the ground outdoors, there is one speaker that works everywhere... the V30.

If you listen to people like Trucks who uses the crappest speakers available to the human race... and I have stood four feet away from his Super Reverb (his own the one that was stolen) the sound by it's self is horrid, truly horrid, it could dissolve tooth enamel. However in the mix of things it was simply stunning. Listen to Elmore James... exactly the same scenario... to name just two.

My point is that like in many cases you have a choice: Do you go with what you want (often because of marketing hype), or do you go with what works?" If you're lucky they are the same thing but in our business often not.

Having said that, I love the sound/feel of the V30 in a room just by myself too.

Also here's another idea, a little different approach perhaps, one that will upset the purists: If something is "moving" the eye notices it more against a "noisy" background (that's why camouflage works only when the soldier is stationary). Just like the eye, the ear will notice a sound that is moving á-la chorus for example. Look/see how a Leslie barges it's way through the mix... when that thing starts spinning faster... you swear it was "louder" but often just more demanding of your attention. That's often why I like to pretend and use a rotary simulator... I've used the real thing but I was younger and stronger.

-Paul

[zaphod_phil]

The British V30 is held together with nuts and bolts. The Chinese V30 is held together with glue.

The V30 does not have less bottom end as a lot of folks have told me... simply put, that is flat out wrong.

That's really silly. They must be on drugs or something. V30s have tons of low end. And lots of top end too. A combination that metal players love. The mids are more higher mids though, compared with the stronger mid-mids of say a G12H-30, if you get what I mean. Also FYI at one time Celestion's web site used to state that the V30 was designed, with the aid of laser doppler interferometry, to have the same cone frequency response characteristics as the Blue Alnico. Just with the big ceramic magnet, it's got way more punch.

[PaulBlandford]

The British V30 is held together with nuts and bolts. The Chinese V30 is held together with glue.

It's true... ask Mesa. It's a different speaker off a different machine. If you order V30's through Mesa you get British speakers. If you order or buy through stores, online or off, you get the Chinese. All Mesa eqpt. comes with the British. I know someone who knows someone who is a Mesa rep.

-Paul