18 watt too quiet.

[Plexi]

Build a 2x EL34 amp, using the 18 circuit, use a VVR,and the amp can then be played at about any volume or venue.Dial it in to what you need.

Just have to use octal output sockets..a little change in the values to run the El34s. And also have the amp so you could use a SS recto or tube recto.

And Phil was correct about the groove tubes. A lot of the truth [that many already knew] is coming out from people that worked there. Some forums have posts about this. I think one is on the gear page.

Their QC was letting known crap go out for sale.

[cheezebandrik]

FWIW,
I just replaced my celestion v30 in my f30 mesa with a weber ceramic 12(dont have the exact model # off the top)
sounds awsome. Weber makes great spkrs, and they are reasonably priced. No Hype - just good product.
I would try a couple of those.

Rick

I'm looking to build some kind of 18 watt clone soon - right now I'm working on a single ended 5 watt el 84 amp (weber - smokin joe)
I'm likely going to run a 2 X12 cab with a couple of webers in it.........

[Snapcase]

V30s ... The mids are more higher mids though, compared with the stronger mid-mids of say a G12H-30, if you get what I mean.

How the Eminence Wizard compares with those two?

I'm kicking around the idea of going a step up from an EL84 pair to a quartet. I'm wanting a bit more "output" to keep up with a crazy drummer, just a bit more would be enough, so perhaps going for slightly more efficient speakers might be the solution instead of a new amp. I'm currently using V30s, and they are OK, though a bit too hard for my ears as usual. The 103dB sensitivity of the Wizards is really tempting but I don't want something like the V30s upper mids peak. My favorite speaker ever is the old G12H30. A friend of mine has an old 4x12" I always borrow for recordings and nothing sounds this good.

Would the Wizards do both things? Putting out a bit more pressure from the amp and shifting the midrange peak a bit lower?

Thanks.

[rjgtr]

What to use in an 18 or 36 in place of a V30? I recommend a standard G12H30. It is a great sounding speaker. I also like G12M-25s, but that's a little more old school 60s sounding. The nice thing about the G12H-30 is that it is a great all around speaker that suits an 18 just about perfectly (IMHO).

BTW - I own a bunch of V30s, both Chinese and British made, and once broken in they sound the same. The Chinese aren't inferior in any way. That's just internet non-sense. I've even swapped them out in the same amp to find out if it was true with no discernable difference. The Chinese speakers are made to Celestions high standards and no-one should worry about them being inferior.

[Snapcase]

I agree about the far east and UK V30s. I have a couple of both and IMHO, once broken in you'll find more differences between particular speakers that any evident difference regarding the origin. The best sounding pair is a well aged UK make like 10 years old and a 1 year old Chinese. The other British sounds a bit too dull and the other Chinese too harsh. (Some more break in needed?)

I'm not a fan of the G12M-25. I like them with some amps and cabs and don't like them at all with others, but never heard any G12H sounding wrong to me with anything plugged to it. I guess you are right. Though looking for alternatives and a little more push, I think I should go for the "right" one for my ears... and perhaps two more bottles.

[LeeMo]

I'm going a different direction, here. You said that the 18 watt was fine in a club setting but didn't cut thru outdoors. I'm thinking that the beamyness of the 412 cab is fine when it reflects off of the walls but beams out into oblivion when outdoors. I bet it sounds great from the audience. Surely you are micing it for the outdoor gigs. I remember seing Springsteen's band on TV and they had their cabs in front of them leaning way back and facing the musicians like a floor monitor. That made perfect sense to me. It gives you more "me" and doesn't kill the front rows. It also gives the FOH guy a more pure separation of signals.
Just a thought.

LeeMo

[Snapcase]

You are correct. Outdoors, even a well pushed 100 Watt with a conventional 4x12" cab can be hard to be heard clearly if standing out of the beam, while killing at the folks in the audience right in front. Some cabs have some better dispersion than others. One thing I notice with AC30 users even in small clubs, is that they hardly ever can hear their own amps if not placed pointing right to them and rised over crates or road cases while my ears are bleeding in the FOH desk. Those amps a hugely directional.

In my short experience with "detuned" 2x12" cabs (you know, a 4x12" with two speakers removed) dispersion improves nicely. Apart of the tonal changes, I can hear myself much better without being tied to the narrow projection beam of a typical 2x12".

Do you ever wondered why most very old amps have open back cabs and rear control panels? They were intended to be placed in front of the musicians playing behind them while the amp where aimed to the audience at the stage front. Later, when power was increased, the amps were moved to the back line (hence the traditional name of a band's gear). Players heard themselves better and the extra power filled the room for the audience. For this reason the tilting legs amps and the slanted cabs were conceived. The idea behind this is the sound beam being angled upwards to project further to the audience instead of being blocked by the musicians and the first rows. When Marshall started making the very first huge and tall slanted 8x12" cabs for the Who, the slanted upper speakers didn't pointed to the players at all. They where meant to project into the room. The early PA systems where just multi channel amps, very close to the instruments amps intended to plug some mikes for the vocals.

As you all probably know, the The Who crew complained about the huge cabs, so they were cut in too. The new lower cab is not far from the regular 4X12" sizing we know these days, while the upper cab remained taller and bigger to project above the musicians heads. When PA systems as we understand them today were introduced and developed by the early '70s, there was no actual need for the stacks anymore (multiple stacks are still a glamurous looking backline for a hard rock band, though only one or two amps are actually working. The rest are usually dummies just for the looks in most cases). So those not playing hard rock started to use smaller cabs or single slanted 4x12 cabs. Slanted, now with the idea of listening our own playing by pointing the sound beam towards our ears more than projecting sound further away.

Pacing the amps or cabs right in front of the musicians like in the early days of amplified music is not a bad idea at all. Placing the amps in the backline of the stage is only the traditional method we always see, so we are so used to keep doing it this way. Not a few bands are using cabs as monitors these days. Projecting sound to the audience is the PA job. Amps these days are mere tone producers, and there is actually no need for 100 watt stacks. I think this is why we find more and more players using amps ranging from 15 to 30 watts these days. Enough for a small club with not much PA or just an small system for the vocals... and enough for a stadium as well if well placed on-stage relying on the PA system to fill the house.

Sorry for the very long post.

[Snapcase]

And a bit longer...

I remember a PJ Harvey tour, when she stopped paying guitar that she made the musicians to use small 20 watt combos tilted upwards placed in the front monitor line. So they could hear themselves perfectly well and keeping the stage SPL quite low.

Also Porl Thompson played some touring with The Cure using two 1x12 combos and two 1x12 cabs tilted upwards placed in a square surounding him playing in the center. I guess this arrangement may have some phase cancellations, but not a bad idea after all.

[LeeMo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj0xfeGINF0

At 0:45 seconds hit pause. You'll see the amps facing almost straight up behind Bruce. I was mistaken about them being at the monitor.

LeeMo