Did the original 18 watts have ceramic or alnico speakers?

[SoCalSteve]

I want to get as close to the original's tone as I can. I read somewhere that Silver Alnicos may have been used.

[leslie]

The first ones used G12 alnico http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?set_a ... _photo.php

http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?set_a ... _photo.php

[zaphod_phil]

I'm not sure that all of them did. There were three versions of the original 18W - the 1958 JMP "Lead" 2x10 combo, the 1973 "Lead and Bass" 2X12 combo and the 1974 "Lead and Bass" 1X12 combo. The pictures for the 2X12s do usually show those silver alnico speakers. IIRC the 2X10 Lead combo had a pair of ceramic speakers, and the 1X12 had a 20W Greenback like the RI 1974X. So take your pick.

Any 18W archaeologists out there, please feel free to correct any details.

Modern Celestion alnico speakers (including the silver one in my avatar) don't sound the same as those original silver alnicos, which had tone to sell your grandmother for. It used to really bug me why the modern Celestion alnicos sound so different, until I came across this article a couple of weeks back, that explains a possible reason why - http://digital.premierguitar.com/premie ... /?folio=76 There were also some originals being sold on the Vintage Amps board last week for $1k a pair. They appear to have gone now. If I had the money I would have bought a pair without a moment's hesitation - wouldn't we all. Here's a picture of one of them - http://vintageamps.com/plexiboard/downl ... &mode=view
Going by what the article said about fibre length, I wonder if Tone Tubby alnicos aren't the closest equivalent you can find these days.

[MarkusV]

I'm not sure that all of them did. There were three versions of the original 18W - the 1958 JMP "Lead" 2x10 combo, the 1973 "Lead and Bass" 2X12 combo and the 1974 "Lead and Bass" 1X12 combo. The pictures for the 2X12s do usually show those silver alnico speakers. IIRC the 2X10 Lead combo had a pair of ceramic speakers, and the 1X12 had a 20W Greenback like the RI 1974X. So take your pick.

Any 18W archaeologists out there, please feel free to correct any details.

Modern Celestion alnico speakers (including the silver one in my avatar) don't sound the same as those original silver alnicos, which had tone to sell your grandmother for. It used to really bug me why the modern Celestion alnicos sound so different, until I came across this article a couple of weeks back, that explains a possible reason why - http://digital.premierguitar.com/premie ... /?folio=76 There were also some originals being sold on the Vintage Amps board last week for $1k a pair. They appear to have gone now. If I had the money I would have bought a pair without a moment's hesitation - wouldn't we all. Here's a picture of one of them - http://vintageamps.com/plexiboard/downl ... &mode=view
Going by what the article said about fibre length, I wonder if Tone Tubby alnicos aren't the closest equivalent you can find these days.

Zaphod

OK -this is really intriguing and I respect Ken Fisher's (rest in peace) opinion very much.
But how does the fiber from taller trees remain longer? Aren't the fibers cut at a similar length before grinding them into a pulp and then mixed with glue?

I can accept that fibers from older trees have a different density due to age of wood, but no way are they longer once ground up!!

Please educate me and also point to my ignorance if any

Great article BTW- Thanks!!

Markus V

[leslie]

Thanks Phil for the info,
can you tell me sound difference beetween those silvers and later Vox sixties silver speakers..are they same cone models?
http://www.artifactaudio.com/includes/celestion-G12.JPG
http://www.artifactaudio.com/includes/63firsttrain.mp3

[SoCalSteve]

Thanks Phil. Since I posted this, I actually found a used Heritage G12M for a good price to try in my 1974 replica. I'm finding the G12H30 to be a little bright for me. I'd love to try a Scumnico, which is supposedly based on the Silver, but that's alot of money to spend at this point in time.

[krx]

OK -this is really intriguing and I respect Ken Fisher's (rest in peace) opinion very much.
But how does the fiber from taller trees remain longer? Aren't the fibers cut at a similar length before grinding them into a pulp and then mixed with glue?

I can accept that fibers from older trees have a different density due to age of wood, but no way are they longer once ground up!!

Please educate me and also point to my ignorance if any

Great article BTW- Thanks!!

Markus V

I think you have a good point here Markus. Ken Fisher was a great amp builder, but that doesn't mean everything he said/thought makes sense.

[krx]

Phil (or anyone else) -- have you tried the "Scumnicos"? I've been curious about those but not curious enough to spend the $300 once you count shipping...

[guitarmike2107]

I think many things Ken said need to be taken with a pinch of salt, some say he could hear ant's phart..

No doubt there is some truth about some things, perhaps the glue is different and has adds different mechanical characteristic.

You could also blame the fibres for not orienting themselves in the same way every time. or for making sure cone thickness is accurate to 1 micro millimetre.

Perhaps its years of playing in smokey bars that was missing, and now with no smoking policies across the UK we will never realise the same glory.

Perhaps the different pollutants have affected the trees natural resonances.. Therefore affecting the cone tone.

Who knows….

I think speakers are like people. . . They grow up, they get old and end up sounding different and wearing the years.

[MarkusV]

Guitarmike

I like your points
Let's remember that the original amps sound was probably tweaked around the speaker of the day. So you get a particular set of component values that really make the speaker shine.
Perhaps Marshall would have built an equally exiting amp in the 90's if they started then, but the component values for an 18 watter would be somewhat different?

I know this is just speculation though
After all is said and done, one has to concede that there is probably nothing like the gradual, natural deterioration of a speaker cone for adding character

Markus v

[zaphod_phil]

OK -this is really intriguing and I respect Ken Fisher's (rest in peace) opinion very much. But how does the fiber from taller trees remain longer? Aren't the fibers cut at a similar length before grinding them into a pulp and then mixed with glue? I can accept that fibers from older trees have a different density due to age of wood, but no way are they longer once ground up!!

I'm afraid I'm not an expert in the production of cone paper, nor am I in the business of defending Ken Fischer. I merely offered this as a "possible reason" to quote my own words. I do however suspect that there are different paper production processes around with different ways of pulping the wood. I also tend to think it probably wouldn't have been too hard for Ken and Celestion to see the different fibre lengths in the cones, so that part is probably true. However, I suspect it may have had little or nothing to do with the age of the trees, and was probably just due to a change in production methods resulted in a shorter fibre.

can you tell me sound difference beetween those silvers and later Vox sixties silver speakers..are they same cone models?

I have heard that the early Marshalls used the same silver alnico speakers as Vox. But I'm afraid I'm not really much into Vox amps and I don't know any more than that. The speaker in the picture I posted was actually from a Vox amp. However the number stamped on the sticker is different from the one you posted.

Thanks Phil. Since I posted this, I actually found a used Heritage G12M for a good price to try in my 1974 replica. I'm finding the G12H30 to be a little bright for me. I'd love to try a Scumnico, which is supposedly based on the Silver, but that's alot of money to spend at this point in time.

IIRC a G12M is probably more likely to be the correct speaker for a 1974. However, a G12H30 should be no brighter generally than a G12M of the same age, as they would use the same cones (whether 55Hz bass or 75Hz lead). The difference between the two speakers is in the magnet and the voice coil, giving the G12H-30 the bigger, tighter bass, louder sound and slightly higher power handling.

I'd love to try a Scumnico, which is supposedly based on the Silver, but that's alot of money to spend at this point in time.

Phil (or anyone else) -- have you tried the "Scumnicos"? I've been curious about those but not curious enough to spend the $300 once you count shipping...

I would love to try a Scumnico too. The folks at Scumback seem to know Celestion speakers better than even Celestion does. So there's a good chance they've figured out how to nail that tone.

I think you have a good point here Markus. Ken Fisher was a great amp builder, but that doesn't mean everything he said/thought makes sense.

I think many things Ken said need to be taken with a pinch of salt, some say he could hear ant's phart..

I agree. There's actually a bunch of things Ken said that I find hard to go along with. I doubt the story about the ants, but it's a fact that he believed that tone is affected by different colours of wire insulation. But like I said, the length of paper fibres would be pretty easy to verify with the help of a good magnifier or microscope.

No doubt there is some truth about some things, perhaps the glue is different and has adds different mechanical characteristic.

From my layman's viewpoint I think I can see how more glue would make for a stiffer cone - maybe shorter fibres too.

Perhaps its years of playing in smokey bars that was missing, and now with no smoking policies across the UK we will never realise the same glory. Perhaps the different pollutants have affected the trees natural resonances.. Therefore affecting the cone tone. Who knows…. I think speakers are like people. . . They grow up, they get old and end up sounding different and wearing the years.

After all is said and done, one has to concede that there is probably nothing like the gradual, natural deterioration of a speaker cone for adding character.

I agree. But since we don't have any modern-style Celestion Alnicos that are 40 years old, there's no way to find out if that's really the whole story. To my ears at least, the difference between the old silvers and the modern ones seems to be too marked to just be the result of many years of breaking in. Those old ones are sheer magic, and have an amazingly crisp articulation without being shrill or harsh at all.

Let's remember that the original amps sound was probably tweaked around the speaker of the day. So you get a particular set of component values that really make the speaker shine. Perhaps Marshall would have built an equally exiting amp in the 90's if they started then, but the component values for an 18 watter would be somewhat different?

We know that wasn't the case because the same circuit was used in three different versions of the amp, which each had different cabs and speakers. And that circuit itself was ripped off from Watkins' Dominator. Amp design was more primitive back then. You're quite close to the truth though about how the amp design would have been done in the '90s. From my fairly recent involvement with Marshall, I found that these days they usually tweak both the amp design and the speaker (with Celestion's cooperation) to find the sweet spot. {BTW Aurora is about 25 minutes drive north for me. A real beautiful place to play an 18W amp. }

[Brewmaster]

Interesting Article. Next time I run into Dean I will have to pick his brain and see what else he remembers from the interview. So the old G12's had a sensitivity rating of 103 db. . That makes for one loud amp!!!!!!

Eminence has a couple of their british voiced Red Coat series speakers that come in at 103, (Red Fang and Wizard). The Red Fang is supposed to be based on the Blue but I have no idea of what they sound like, I just haven't come across any. The old G12's are in a class by themselves so any comparison will have *any* new speaker fall short. Can they be good speakers in thier own right? Why not? They just won't cut muster in a direct comparison.

[doctornorbert]

Eminence also has an AlNiCo 12 with a hempcone: the Canis Major. Someone needs to try this.

[Brewmaster]

Eminence also has an AlNiCo 12 with a hempcone: the Canis Major. Someone needs to try this.

I have a Cannabis Rex on order which is supposed to have a bit more top end than the Canis Major. Both have a sensitivity rating of 102 db. I know, the Rex is ceramic the Major is alnico. The price of alnico scares me off.

Speaking of Hemp cone speakers, I know of several folks that really like Tone Tubby and I think it is Trinity that recommends them. Anybody try Tone Tubby?

[zaphod_phil]

I was testing out this new Trinity TMB 18W (an SIII) 1X12 combo the previous weekend, fitted with a Tone Tubby Alnico. The tone was smooth and not harsh, even with very little breaking in. If that had been a Celestion Blue my teeth would have been hurting. However, it didn't sound quite the same to me as an 18W with vintage silver alnicos, but it wasn't a vintage amp either. I would have dearly loved to hear this amp with a set of NOS tubes in it.

[krx]

Speaking of Hemp cone speakers, I know of several folks that really like Tone Tubby and I think it is Trinity that recommends them. Anybody try Tone Tubby?

I've tried the ceramic and alnico Tone Tubbies. The response is basically like a smoother vintage Jensen P12. They'd be good for blues, Santana worshippers, or John Mayer . I don't think they would be a good choice for rock, country, or anything where you need some jangle.

Also, their prices are ridiculous now, especially their alnico markup. Once you add shipping, it's $170 for a ceramic or $320 for alnico. Eminence seems like the way to go here at half the price.

[BDC]

I can't claim for a minute to have Kens ear.....and I have only ever played alnico blues in a AC30 reissue I worked on.....My limited experience with Jensen Alnicos has left me fairly unimpressed....I did think the Vox sounded good.....I have however AB tested a 1969 Marshall cab (W/original g 12 H 30)vs a modern Marshall w/V30s......Both were 4-12 slants and the 1969 sounded way better.....Since then I have been quite sold on the G12H30.....I'd sure like to go side by side with the G12H30 original vs reissue......The previous AB test I once did was what actually sold me on vintage speaker hype. The astronomical price of the Blues has kept me away........but as a rule I don't believe magnet composition has near as much to do with sound as actual magnetic pull......Though the wieght may also play a role......

As for the long wood strands in the sawdust that makes up a speaker....Sometimes I just wonder if Ken Fischer had a few laughs at our gullible expense.......Sure this could maybe make a difference.......but I'm not so sure one couldn't acquire old growth for this task......If all your needing is something to make sawdust out of. I'm gonna assume that in that R&D project that they used the exact same glue......

[zaphod_phil]

I don't think they would be a good choice for rock, country, or anything where you need some jangle.

I disagree. There's a helluva a lot of people using them for rock, some that I know, plus pro gigging rock players (apart from John Mayer or Santana). From the few times I've played them, they sound like excellent rock speakers to me. I'm afraid I don't have much time for country, so I couldn't comment on that - nor jazz for that matter.

And I just heard that the guy who bought the amp I was testing, is crazy happy with it. He's got a recording studio, and he's definitely using it for rock! There's quite a few rock acts in the customer list on their web site too - www.tonetubby.com/oldstuff/ourcustomers.html

......but as a rule I don't believe magnet composition has near as much to do with sound as actual magnetic pull......Though the wieght may also play a role......

Weight does make a difference, in the sense that it usually means a more powerful magnet. That's part of the magic of your G12H-30s. In the case of Alnico the material does also make a real difference, due to the fact that it consucts electricity and the eddy currents flowing through it fight against the fields of the applied signal. So Alnico speakers compress the signal in a way that ceramic magnet speakers don't.

As for the long wood strands in the sawdust that makes up a speaker....Sometimes I just wonder if Ken Fischer had a few laughs at our gullible expense.......Sure this could maybe make a difference.......but I'm not so sure one couldn't acquire old growth for this task......If all your needing is something to make sawdust out of. I'm gonna assume that in that R&D project that they used the exact same glue......

I doubt that you could make good cone paper out of any kind of sawdust. You need wood fibres, not wood particles. And like I said with the Ken Fischer story, I'm sure Celestion and Ken could both easily see the relative lengths of the wood fibres using a good magnifier or microscope. So I think that part is probably true. However, that story about older trees is certainly open to some debate.

[krx]

I don't think they would be a good choice for rock, country, or anything where you need some jangle.

I disagree. There's a helluva a lot of people using them for rock, some that I know, plus pro gigging rock players (apart from John Mayer or Santana). From the few times I've played them, they sound like excellent rock speakers to me. I'm afraid I don't have much time for country, so I couldn't comment on that - nor jazz for that matter.

Yeah, I was maybe a little harsh. I just didn't care for the mids on the hemp speakers. I wouldn't use a P12 to rock either. Lots of people like both of those though.

[leslie]

And the price for the pair (one is reconed) is not too bad.... http://cgi.ebay.com/Celestion-G12-Alnic ... 286.c0.m14
Happy bidding