Speaker recommendation for a Marshall 1974x with 1974cx cab?

[mattymel]

hey. just recently added on the matching cx cab to my marshall 1974x combo. really like it, but am curious as to what different speakers people have tried out in this combination?

to my ear, the cab definitely puts out a touch more bass, which i like. so what i am thinking is maybe trying an alnico speaker of some kind in the combo itself. any suggestions? i like alnico speakers because i feel that they add a little more warmth to the sound. i like the G12Ms for standing out in a mix, but they can be pretty bright. thanks!

[V_amp]

Recently I bought two Eminence Legend V 128 (120W).
But I didn't do the cabinet yet.
V128 is a good speaker and a cabinet with two of them is sufficient for several amps.

Nowadays I'm using an Eminence Legend 10" 1028k 35W.
It holds the 18W, but it isn't ideal.

FAB

[zaphod_phil]

just recently added on the matching cx cab to my marshall 1974x combo. really like it, but am curious as to what different speakers people have tried out in this combination? to my ear, the cab definitely puts out a touch more bass, which i like. so what i am thinking is maybe trying an alnico speaker of some kind in the combo itself. any suggestions? i like alnico speakers because i feel that they add a little more warmth to the sound. i like the G12Ms for standing out in a mix, but they can be pretty bright. thanks!

IIRC the CX cab has a big, loud and punchy Heritage G12H-30 inside (with the 55Hz bass cone). Which is a great speaker to complement an 18W. The 1974X already has an "aged" G12M inside, so it shouldn't be too bright. Just lots of nice warm mids. G12Ms generally need a good bit of breaking in.

If you don't like bright speakers, then you won't want Celestion Alnicos, or similar Celestion-like Alnico speakers, such as Weber's Bluedog or Eminence's Red Fang, in an 18W. They are naturally very bright and IMO don't combine well with the natural brightness of an 18W's EL84 power stage. I had to pull the Celestion/Marshall Silver alnico in my current avatar out of the 1X12 combo it was in because it was too bright, even after a lot of breaking in. I recently tried a Tone Tubby alnico in an 18W 1X12 combo and that was a lot warmer. Now I'm thinking of trying an Eminence Cannabis Rex or Canis Major hemp cone speaker.

Having said all that, if you're going to be running the combo with the CX extension cab most of the time, then there could be an argument for complementing the darker speaker in the CX with a brighter speaker in the combo. Just a thought....

[jaysg]

Please forgive a tangent:

Adding a cab means that the load impedance is being cut in half. Does the Marshall have an impedance selector?

[mattymel]

yes. i set it to 8 ohms on the amp. strangely, that is also where it was set for about 2 months (without my noticing) before i got my extension cab. someone at the store must have done it. i guess i lucked out on the OT holding up. its now set to 8ohms for using the internal speaker ALONG the cab.

i am with you on the G12Ms (which i have in both the amp AND the cab) have lots of nice mids. im a little perplexed as to the suggestion that the weber blue dogs are a bright speaker. i have one in a weber blue dog in my old BF fender Deluxe (non reverb). i have always thought of it as more warm than bright. though i realize in a FENDER amp, speakers have a totally different vibe than a marshall.

pardon my ignorance, but if i want to try out my weber (8ohm) with my marshall, would i just set the 1974x to 16ohms or 4ohms, or is a 8ohm speaker incompatible with the 1974x? just a bad idea?

from all the clips i have listened to, my ears are telling me that the speaker i may be craving is a G12H. all the hendrix talk is kind of annoying, but perhaps well deserved. they seem to have a roundness of tone that i really like. anyone tried pairing them with the G12M?

[CurtissRobin]

i set it to 8 ohms on the amp. strangely, that is also where it was set for about 2 months (without my noticing) before i got my extension cab. someone at the store must have done it. i guess i lucked out on the OT holding up.

It seems you've drunk the Kool Aid of, "Impedence MUST match." A mismatch of one step either direction is neither fatal to the amp nor degrading to the sound. You could probably gig with that amp set at 8 ohms (into a 16 ohm load) for many years with few or no ill effects. The OT would stand up fine but the power tubes would be a bit stressed and you'd probably want to replace them a little more often than if the match were nominally perfect. In a high powered system it could be a problem but this far below 100W, don't worry, it'll be fine.

KennyO

[krx]

It seems you've drunk the Kool Aid of, "Impedence MUST match." A mismatch of one step either direction is neither fatal to the amp nor degrading to the sound.

I agree with the first half, but the impedance load absolutely has a real and measurable effect on the sound (bandwidth and harmonic distortion). Of course, you might like the sound of an "incorrect" load.

[zaphod_phil]

i have always thought of it as more warm than bright. though i realize in a FENDER amp, speakers have a totally different vibe than a marshall.

You've just hit the nail on the head. And an especially different vibe in a Marshall 18W with its EL84 power tubes.

i want to try out my weber (8ohm) with my marshall, would i just set the 1974x to 16ohms or 4ohms, or is a 8ohm speaker incompatible with the 1974x? just a bad idea?

If you run the 8 ohm speaker on it's own then you can indeed set the Marshall output to 8 ohms. However, 8 ohm and 16 ohm in parallel will give you a funny value around 5 ohms. So while it probably won't blow anything up, it won't give you a test of anything very meaningful either.

from all the clips i have listened to, my ears are telling me that the speaker i may be craving is a G12H. all the hendrix talk is kind of annoying, but perhaps well deserved. they seem to have a roundness of tone that i really like.

I agree - but isn't that what you've already got in the CX cab? A G12H is a bit louder than a G12M BTW.

It seems you've drunk the Kool Aid of, "Impedence MUST match." A mismatch of one step either direction is neither fatal to the amp nor degrading to the sound. You could probably gig with that amp set at 8 ohms (into a 16 ohm load) for many years with few or no ill effects. The OT would stand up fine but the power tubes would be a bit stressed and you'd probably want to replace them a little more often than if the match were nominally perfect. In a high powered system it could be a problem but this far below 100W, don't worry, it'll be fine.

Well, yes and no IMHO. As we know matching is pretty rough and ready in tube amps. However, in my own experiments with 18W amps I found there were noticable differences in tone and breakup when you moved above or below the nominal 8k at the OT primary. I'm also more cautious when running at "mismatched" impedances with Marshall and Fender amps, because their OTs seem to be made to a tight budget and somewhat prone to burning out. It's only quite recently that Marshall seem to have gotten over the 1974X's transformer burning problems. So I would still be cautious with a 1974X. In any case upgrading the Marshall output transformer to a good quality 18W clone OT would be a positive step for both reliability and tone.

[doctornorbert]

I run my 18 watt with an Eminence Lil' Buddy hempcone and Red Fang 10". They blend nicely, although the Fang probably dominates the mix. I had two Lil' Buddies for a while but thought it sounded a touch muted. Still, a great speaker.

But you are talking 12s so I would try the Canis Major.

[mattymel]

from all the clips i have listened to, my ears are telling me that the speaker i may be craving is a G12H. all the hendrix talk is kind of annoying, but perhaps well deserved. they seem to have a roundness of tone that i really like.

I agree - but isn't that what you've already got in the CX cab? A G12H is a bit louder than a G12M BTW.

the 1974cx comes stock with the G12M. from all the clips i have heard, the G12H has a very different, rounder, less mid-dy kind of sound to me.

thanks for the tip. im going to try that weber blue dog in the amp tomorrow set to 8ohms on the amp. right? hehe. (still paranoid from all the horror stories, even though i am pretty sure i got a decent OT in this one)

[krx]

The impedance mismatch won't hurt anything, it just won't sound the same. Check out the datasheet for the EL84/6BQ5 (scroll to the chart at the bottom of page 5):

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/fran ... 6/6BQ5.pdf

The impedance load is a choice you make to optimize the balance between output power and distortion. There's usually an "ideal" value, but that doesn't mean you can't stray from it (Matchless is notorious for doing this). Note that the chart is for single-ended operation (hence the ideal load of ~5k), not push-pull.

[doctornorbert]

Yeah, you'll do your OT no harm by varying the load by a factor of two up or down.

[mattymel]

well, i spent a bit trying out the weber blue dog with the amp...

sounded pretty good, maybe a little creamier than the G12M, but once i plugged the G12M back in, it seems marshall has actually got this one right.

on a interesting sidenote, after switching my impedance to the correct 16 ohm setting for using the combo only, i think i noticed a bit more bass punchiness that was missing before when it was mysteriously incorrectly set to 8ohms. am i crazy?

im liking this amp more and more. still, im tempted to try out a G12H. anybody know the differences between the G12H Heritage and the other G12H 30 watt 70th anniv...? maybe is the G12H heritage made in England, other one in china? ones green the other silver?

[krx]

on a interesting sidenote, after switching my impedance to the correct 16 ohm setting for using the combo only, i think i noticed a bit more bass punchiness that was missing before when it was mysteriously incorrectly set to 8ohms. am i crazy?

Not crazy. Impedance load definitely affects bandwidth. Also, on transformers with multiple taps, the higher impedance secondary will give a wider bandwidth response. Probably a little of both happening in your case.

I've noticed a significant difference between running the same two speakers in parallel off the 4 Ohm tap versus in series off the 16 Ohm tap. The 16 Ohm has a much broader frequency response -- essentially the same as going from a crap transformer to a good one.

im liking this amp more and more. still, im tempted to try out a G12H. anybody know the differences between the G12H Heritage and the other G12H 30 watt 70th anniv...? maybe is the G12H heritage made in England, other one in china? ones green the other silver?

The (big) difference is the Heritage uses the 55 Hz cone, while the 70th Anniv. uses the 75 Hz cone. Because the resonant peak of the Heritage is below guitar frequencies, it has a very full but not boomy low end. It also has smoother mids than the G12H Anniv. and Blue, more like the G12M Greenback but without the weak/flabby bottom. There's a little less high end with a Heritage though. Depending on your style and guitars, it can be an excellent choice with an 18 Watt.

I actually have a Warehouse/WGS Reaper 55 Hz on its way to me now for testing as a low-cost alternative to the Heritage. Will report back on that next week....
[/quote]

[cGil]

The Heritage G12H is still made in England and has the 55Hz base cone. This is the real deal, (the version Hendrix actually used); and not the cheap model with the 75Hz cone that was farmed out to a Chinese factory to maximize profit margin.

I just installed a Heritage G12H in my 18watt combo and moved my G12M to a matching flex-back extension cab that Anthony built for me. Hey, I'm no carpenter. Anyway, Zaphod_Phil's right again (as usual). The G12H is just a hair louder than my Heritage G12M.

Right now, I can't offer a comparison on the tone cuz the G12H is still brand new and nasty harsh sounding. I'll have to pound on it for a good 100 hours before it'll be worth listening too. Such is life for all new speakers, so here comes that noisy old radio in a closet speaker-burn-in trick... again...

However, the folks here definitely know the best of the best grail tone and how to get it. So far, I'm batting 1000 just from following their good advice. If they think a G12H/G12M combination is the best, you can pretty much take that to the bank cuz their advice is worth its weight in, um, well, speaker magnets at the very least!

Gil...

[mattymel]

Cool. I have to say, prior to this i have been reading mostly reviews from people on My Les Paul forum...what a waste of time. people here are way more direct, informed, and not so DEFENSIVE. plus they seem to have taste.

i have a feeling the G12H heritage may be THE one for me. hendrix was my first love and i think (though i dont listen to him much anymore) i did get a ingrained idea of what tone should be from all those records. though with my les pauls, things always change around.

i think i might order one of these deals and see what happens. im kind of thinking i may drop it in the combo since i feel that is the less bassy of the two. CHEERS for the thoughts/help.

[krx]

If you mostly play Strats like Hendrix, I think you'll like the Heritage a lot -- adds some meat.

Not clear on your exact rig, but if you're mixing a G12M and a G12H (of any kind) and one cab is open and the other closed, I would put the M in the closed back and the H in the open back.

[mattymel]

right now i am playing Gibson 1954 and 1959 reissue VOS LPs. one has lollar p90s, the other lollar PAFs (both low winds). not really into strats anymore. though i do think about buying a tele on a daily basis. these days i am mostly playing along with neil young and The Bands first 2 records.

both the combo and the cab are open backed. so if the G12H has some nice low end to it, that would be very welcomed. though im kind of curious about these Tone Tubby ceramics. i think they are called 40/40s. anybody tried them?

[zaphod_phil]

on a interesting sidenote, after switching my impedance to the correct 16 ohm setting for using the combo only, i think i noticed a bit more bass punchiness that was missing before when it was mysteriously incorrectly set to 8ohms. am i crazy?

No, that makes sense. The sound will change with different impedance settings.

Impedance load definitely affects bandwidth. Also, on transformers with multiple taps, the higher impedance secondary will give a wider bandwidth response. Probably a little of both happening in your case.
I've noticed a significant difference between running the same two speakers in parallel off the 4 Ohm tap versus in series off the 16 Ohm tap. The 16 Ohm has a much broader frequency response -- essentially the same as going from a crap transformer to a good one.

Apparently the highest impedance secondary windings are the closest to the primary windings and therefore have the best high frequency transfer.

The (big) difference is the Heritage uses the 55 Hz cone, while the 70th Anniv. uses the 75 Hz cone. Because the resonant peak of the Heritage is below guitar frequencies, it has a very full but not boomy low end. It also has smoother mids than the G12H Anniv. and Blue, more like the G12M Greenback but without the weak/flabby bottom. There's a little less high end with a Heritage though. Depending on your style and guitars, it can be an excellent choice with an 18 Watt.

So far I've only used the 75Hz version of the G12H-30 and find that it's an excellent speaker. My favourite with an 18W so far. 75Hz is also comfortably below the 83HZ bottom E of a typical 6-string guitar. I've come across a few reports of people saying they did find the 55Hz version too boomy in the low end. You say it isn't. So I guess that it's probably related to other factors like speaker cab, as well as type of guitar and amp, plus we mustn't forget human subjective factors.

The Heritage G12H is still made in England and has the 55Hz base cone. This is the real deal, (the version Hendrix actually used); and not the cheap model with the 75Hz cone that was farmed out to a Chinese factory to maximize profit margin.

I don't think that's a completely accurate picture of the situation. Celestion set up their own factory in China, and moved 90% of their production into that factory. All the people who work there are employees of Celestion. So it wasn't exactly farmed out some anonymous Chinese OEM factory. According to a lengthy post from one of Celestion's UK ex-employees, who helped set up that factory, the production processes are absolutely identical between the two factories down to the smallest details. The Chinese production staff would be sent to work in the UK factory, while UK staff were sent to work in China, so that both factories were completely in sync in how they do things. In his view the only slight difference in tone between a Chinese made or an English made speaker was down to the higher humidity levels in Southern China. Of course, once the Chinese factory got going, this guy was no longer needed and he inevitably got laid off. Sad but typical of what happens. It was also not only about profit margins. Until the recent recession, international exchange rates were approaching $2 US to the UK pound. That alone made UK made products very expensive for anyone outside the UK to buy. So quite a number of UK companies had to find other places to make their goods, whether in Europe or the Far East. One company I was working with in the UK outsourced their manufacturing to Souther Spain, where the currency is Euros. In Celestion's case they kept production of lower quantity premium speakers in the UK, such as Alnicos, Neodymiums and the Heritage range, which people don't seem to mind paying the extra money for. Sorry for the lengthy post....

[rjgtr]

Just to add to Phil's Celestion post, I heard they also set up the factory to provide speakers for Chinese manufactured amps. It made them more competitive and since almost all low end amps are now made in China. Shipping from the UK to China would have added too much cost. I've got examples of UK and Chinese versions of the same model speakers and they look and sound the same to me.

I generally use the 75hz version of the G12H30, but I've also used the 55hz version. The 55hz version seems to have a little less highs, but the difference is very small. The speakers I like best for the 18watt are the G12H30 and G12M25 (although I haven't used a G12M20 in my own amps, I did like them in the reissue). I like the punch of ceramic speakers.