Celestion speaker advice for Pink Floyd sound?

[rob11966]

Hi Folks,

Firstly, let me introduce myself. I am new to the forum. I live in Sydney Australia. I am ignorant with respect to guitar amps, my son being the guitar player. However, I am not entirely without hope. I have a keen interest in building valve amplifiers, mostly hifi but I have built one guitar amp, a Fender tweed deluxe. The tweed is an unmodified 5E3 circuit with Jensen speaker and cabinet from Mojotone.

The Fender is fine but it doesn't really have the tone that my son was looking for and in retrospect I should have built a Marshall. I have settled on the 18W and have rustled up most of the parts. I am going to build the cabinet from scratch (since the USPS canceled surface post, the costs are prohibitive) and I am very grateful for the information on this forum.

I basically have one outstanding dilemma. I have yet to decide on the speaker. I am looking for the 60/70's British rock sound characterized by Pink Floyd. After reading through the forum I have narrowed down the choice to the following -

Celestion G12H or G12H heritage
Celestion G12M or G12M heritage

My reading leads me to believe that the best choice may be the Celestion G12H heritage (not surprisingly considering the price) but I am leaning towards the G12M as this speaker seems to get lots of good press and is significantly cheaper than the others.

What do you guys think? Is the G12M a good choice, will it just suffice or is it a poor option. Should I just hit out and get the G12H heritage?

Thanks in advance,

Rob

[krx]

Those are good speakers but are not really the Gilmour sound. Actually I don't think an 18W will give you that if that's what you're after. You may, however, want to look at the "Marwatt" variation in the downloads section. It will give you some more of that Hiwatt flavor.

Can you get any other brands of speakers there besides Celestion at a reasonable price? How about Eminence?

[zaphod_phil]

+1

If you're trying to accurately copy Dave Gilmour's sound, you really need a big Hiwatt running through Fane Crescendo speakers. Weber makes a Fane Crescendo clone called the FC12. However both the amp and the speakers are going to be impractical in your situation.

krx's suggestion of building a Marwatt 18, is an excellent one. You get the Marshall 18W Normal channel, plus the additional Hiwattish channel - the best of both worlds.

While Fane speakers were the preferred option with Hiwatt amps, they were also available with Celestion speakers. I've actually played a Hiwatt through '70s vintage G12Ms (in a Marshall 4 X1 2) and it didn't sound bad at all, although low end could have done with being a little tighter.

[rob11966]

Thanks Guys,

I have not looked at Eminence. I am probably going to get the speaker shipped from OS anyway so I can certainly have a look. Did you have a particular one in mind

As for the Marwatt - I am off to work right now and I have only had a quick look at the schematic. I was going to build the TMB version anyway and the Marwatt does not look all that different. I will have a close look at the Marwatt tonight.

Soundwise (for the guitar ignorant) what is the main difference between the TMB and Marwatt?

Thanks again for the replies and advice,

Rob

[krx]

The Eminence Tonker is Fane-ish and a pretty nice speaker.

[jaysg]

I think the George Lynch V12 is also a Fane. There are differences between stamped frame and cast frame speakers, so do some research.

[Eric]

It should have a Pink Pig silkscreened on it....

[krx]

I think the George Lynch V12 is also a Fane. There are differences between stamped frame and cast frame speakers, so do some research.

For sure. Not a lot of cast-frame options out there though and the Tonker gets you in the neighborhood for not a lot of $$. It wasn't actually designed to duplicate a Fane but it has a lot of the same vibe. I've never actually seen a Lynch V12, so maybe it does the Fane thing even better.

[zaphod_phil]

The Eminence Tonker is Fane-ish and a pretty nice speaker.

I hate to break the news but according to the guys on the Hiwatt boards, they don't sound like real Fane Purples, despite being great speakers in their own right. You may be right that they're in the same neighbourhood, though.

I think the George Lynch V12 is also a Fane. There are differences between stamped frame and cast frame speakers, so do some research.

Yes, Eminence's GL Super V12 is said to be pretty much the closest equivalent to a Fane Purple you can get anywhere at the moment (it's *real* close to the special OEM Vintage Purples they custom-build for Reeves). The story about the frames is that the early "Purples", custom built for Hiwatt, had cast aluminium frames. Sometime in the '70s they moved to the stamped frames, and there are debates about what the tonal benefits of each kind are. The GL Super V12s have cast frames BTW.

FYI one of the members of the family that owns Fane had moved to the States some years ago and joined Eminence, which gave Eminence the know-how for this type of speaker. He has just recently returned to Fane in the UK, and they have announced plans to re-issue the legendary Fane Purples used by Hiwatt. In any case Gilmour used WEM cabs loaded with Fane Crescendos. I don't how available Eminence speakers are in Australia.

[krx]

The Eminence Tonker is Fane-ish and a pretty nice speaker.

I hate to break the news but according to the guys on the Hiwatt boards, they don't sound like real Fane Purples, despite being great speakers in their own right. You may be right that they're in the same neighbourhood, though.

Yep, same neighborhood, different address. But closer than a Celestion for sure. And cheap.

If you want to spend big money, there's also the Schulz Sugarcone, which will run you $225 but it has the cast frame, what looks like the right cone, and a BIG magnet.

[zaphod_phil]

But closer than a Celestion for sure.

Yes definitely.

If you want to spend big money, there's also the Schulz Sugarcone, which will run you $225 but it has the cast frame, what looks like the right cone, and a BIG magnet.

People with the fat wallets, who have actually done the comparison, report that the GL Super V12 gest closer to the true Fane Purple tone. As I don't have a fat enough wallet myself, I'm just passing this little piece of information along.

[rob11966]

+1

krx's suggestion of building a Marwatt 18, is an excellent one. You get the Marshall 18W Normal channel, plus the additional Hiwattish channel - the best of both worlds.

Yes I really like this idea. Thanks for the replies and patience with the newcomer.

I should point out that I am not obsessed with reproducing the Gillmour sound; just approximating it in a smaller amp will suffice. However I don't want to (pig)eon hole the amp either as it will have pretty much everything played through it.

I am not worried about shipping the speaker from O/S - it is usually cheaper in any case irrespective of the brand. Looking at the suggestion of the Eminence's GL Super V12 , will it sound like a Marshall through the normal channel (as opposed to the Celestion), or is this too much a case of wanting to have my cake and eat it as well?

Cheers again,

Rob

[nyazzip]

i wouldn'y worry about the amp nearly as much as 1)the effects and 2)the guitar....gilmour's sounds were mostly all highly effects-dependent

[rob11966]

i wouldn'y worry about the amp nearly as much as 1)the effects and 2)the guitar....gilmour's sounds were mostly all highly effects-dependent

Thanks Nyazzip, I appreciate the advice. I am really just playing around to get a completely different amp to the Fender and I thought that Pink Floyd sound was a good place to start! I have had a good look at the Marwatt schematic. It is a little more complex than the TMB, so from a builders point of view it is appealing.

With respect to the Eminence's GL Super V12 - I have search for this speaker and I presume that it is the same as the Lynch Super V12 shown on the Eminence site? If so, it's a distinctive looking sucker! I note that it is rated at 150W - high sensitivity though, so I guess my 18W will have no trouble driving it?

So, as long as someone can reassuringly tell me that I can get a decent Marshall sound out of the normal channel with the 150W Eminence speaker, I think that I will take a punt with the Marwatt version and the Eminence combination.

Rob

[katopan]

Don't know about the Gilmore sound etc, but it looks like some good advise has been given already. Just to give you some names, I've bought a couple of Eminence speakers from essentialaudio.com.au. Service was great and their prices seem to be the best I could find locally and they do Eminence, Celestion, & Jensens. (Just a satisfied customer.) Their stock does go up and down a bit though. But for Celestions one of the guys on this board from Queensland said he got better pricing from Gabi who was involved here early on. His site is gabtone.com and price was cheaper than local prices including shipping from OS. Hey and welcome!

[rob11966]

Don't know about the Gilmore sound etc, but it looks like some good advise has been given already. Just to give you some names, I've bought a couple of Eminence speakers from essentialaudio.com.au. Service was great and their prices seem to be the best I could find locally and they do Eminence, Celestion, & Jensens. (Just a satisfied customer.) Their stock does go up and down a bit though. But for Celestions one of the guys on this board from Queensland said he got better pricing from Gabi who was involved here early on. His site is gabtone.com and price was cheaper than local prices including shipping from OS. Hey and welcome!

Katopan,

Thanks. Gold. I have just spent half the night on the web looking at prices.

Rob

[shasen]

http://www.pinkfloyd-co.com/band/interv ... djg96.html

[jaysg]

What's the difference between the Crescendos used by Gilmour and the Purple ones?

[krx]

Crescendos have a vented aluminum dust cap and (I think) a bigger voice coil and magnet.

[zaphod_phil]

http://www.pinkfloyd-co.com/band/interv ... djg96.html

That's a great link. Thanks for sharing it. My one comment is that in the article I think they're somewhat overemphasizing the clean Hiwatt amp story, as a lot of folks do. Dave Gilmour has the 12AT7 PI tube of his early 70s Hiwatts swapped out for a 12AX7, which makes the amp breakup sooner. BTW this is also the casse with Pete Townshend's CP103s. So DG's pedal distortion is also mixed with some natural tube amp breakup. The edgy breakup of an 18W Marwatt amp actually isn't too far off the edgy distortion of a Hiwatt.