Low sensitivity / inefficient 12" speakers

[s151669]

Hi,

I used to love my oversized 2x12 V30 cab, but now I have grown to hate certain buzzy (for lack of better word) qualities of the V30.

Also, they are too damn efficient (100dB/W). I do have VVR (PA+PI), but my lite2b still sounds better with VVR in high register. And I rarely can use it there.

Heritage Greenbacks are of course the obvious solution. However, after listening to these (very nice) clips

http://trinityamps.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1276

I'm not quite certain they are The sound I'm looking for. They are also way too expensive

My bandmate has a extra G12t-75 floating around, so I'm going to give that a test drive. Polar opposite of V30, and tad bit quieter at 97dB/W.

Nice comparation between those here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdR6NVj3-I8

So, is there anything obvious I'm missing ? Eminence has a lot of models, but it seems that they are even more efficient than Celestions. Certain bbq maker does not even publish any data Not that it would make any difference. All celestions look virtually identical from frequency response curve, yet they still manage to sound different!

Other than speaker solutions are welcome too - I'm going to at least increase grid stoppers at PA as attempt to cure some of the VVR woes.

Ah, almost forgot. We play mix of covers & our own stuff, including

AC/DC
Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Iron Maiden (this one needs a little help from pedal )
Led Zeppelin
ZZ Top

You get the idea.

[Mattdive]

Might not be what you're looking for, but I'm using two 12" alnico organ speakers from the 60's. Cost less than $10 each on ebay and have a nice "round" sound. Great for blues, but not much of an edge for rock.

[brewdude]

I know it's not the traditional choice for most of the guys on this forum, but I have been using a WGS ET65 (Celestian G1265 clone) in a Dumble style 1x12 oval open back cab with my Lite 2B. At first the speaker was a little sharp in the high treble response, but it has mellowed a little since breaking in. It has a pretty strong low end too. I like it a lot. I think the efficiency is rated at 95dB.

[s151669]

Oh well, I did go with greenbacks after all. Local supplier had too good offer on them.

[Dustpuppy]

I have a 4x12 with the g12t75's and I find it to be exceedingly bright. If you want a close match for the GB sound without the price tag, try WGS Green Berets. I have one in a closed back cab and it sounds great.

[zaphod_phil]

I have a 4x12 with the g12t75's and I find it to be exceedingly bright..

Ditto. Therefore I don't much like G12T-75s....

[jaysg]

Rumor has it that Eminence is going to release some attenuating speakers this year. I don't know whether they're variable or just really inefficient.

[s151669]

Rumor has it that Eminence is going to release some attenuating speakers this year. I don't know whether they're variable or just really inefficient.

Variable.

http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speake ... l=Maverick
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speake ... Reignmaker

However, they are at least here even more expensive than Heritage greenbacks, and you can get almost 3 regular greenbacks for the price.

Idea itself sounds sound to me, but I have no idea how they actually sound Still, one of those in open back cabinet might be a nice idea. Closed back kind of defeats the purpose

[nyazzip]

i just ordered two Eminence Delta Pro 12As...they are monsters, with massive power handling capabilites, 100dB sensitivity, and a flat response...they are supposed to be very similar to the famous 12" EV speaker, but half the price
a strat+el84 amp=too much high end. so, i love these speakers, which lack the high end spike that most guitar speakers are designed to have. 2 is overkill; just one of these in a roomy box should be more than adequate(400watt RMS, each).
the LiteIIb is not the only amp i have, and i like to play with a semi-broken signal as opposed to full on clipping, so i think these speakers lend themselves well to that style. i do suspect that a humbucker+full distortion might sound a bit muddy with these speakers though. they are probably well suited for a sealed/closed back cab, but thats not the route i am going so far. been experimenting with cabs...at any rate, i no longer have to wonder if i am hearing cone breakup, nor worry about the speakers blowing up, in ANY guitar application. punchy, tight, percussive bass is what i dig...
i did try the vintage-jensen-organ-salvage route for awhile, and i realized that 1)most of those old speakers can't handle any power, 2)they lack in low end capabilities, and 3)they just seem to flavor the sound way too much...anyone want any '50s-'60s jensens? i have a bunch

[zaphod_phil]

If you like a smoother high end, Eminence's "George Lynch Super V12" would also fit the bill really well, as it is a Fane clone. I've also toyed with the idea of the Cannabis Rex, which supposedly has a nice top end roll-off.

[s151669]

Well, Greenbacks arrived and are installed. I only had a brief chance to test the cabinet at rehearsals, since I have to fill in for our bass player for next saturday's gig.

However, it appears that nastiness in sound has gone. Also, it appears that there's something funny going on with sensitivity ratings. With greenbacks it seems that I can dime the VVR and have fun - but with V30 it's just too f*king loud. No way 3dB difference explains this...

Whatever, I'm happy so far.

[kleuck]

If you like a smoother high end, Eminence's "George Lynch Super V12" would also fit the bill really well, as it is a Fane clone. I've also toyed with the idea of the Cannabis Rex, which supposedly has a nice top end roll-off.

I have his little bro, the Lil'Buddy, and indeed it does tame the highs a lot, but i don't think it's only a "Jazz/Blues" HP, it can do that, but is not compressed at all, still "in your face" thing (but it' a 10") and able to rock in an already bright amp
I use it in an somewhat too brigth amp, and tried it paired with an Emi Ramrod and i can't say anything but
A cheap and awesome pair if you like 10"
Lil'Buddy sounds a little less efficient to my ears though theoretically differences are negligible
An issue is that the Buddy doesn't sound good at all when tamed with an attenuator, where the Ramrod still sounds perfect, i suppose the 12" reacts the same way.

[BDC]

I agree that V 30s are way too efficient.....I played through a Mesa 2-12 the rehearsal studio supplied with vintage 30s using my regular 18 watter and it was just too damn loud.....I usually run it through a Marshall 2-12 with a Hellatone 30 and a Emeinence GB 1216.....Much more reasonable volume......Vintage 30s sound good to me but they are loud.....

[s151669]

Yep. This week I have been toying with different attenuator desings in my workshop and comparing those to VVR. The cab I have at workshop contains a 10 inch Jensen ceramic speaker with 95dB/W sensitivity. The beat at full tilt is quite tolerable with that, even tough the Jensen is not the best choice for 18watter.

However, now that I bothered to actually measure the voltages with VVR and scale of the adjustable L-Pad, it appears that both sound quite exellent - if tad bit different - down to about 5W. Both sound still quite usable down to about 2.5W. But below that the buzzines strikes again.

So, it might be that the buzziness I have hated is actually caused by running speakers at less than couple of watts - the scale of VVR is quite surprising. Having sensitive speakers like V30 just causes the need to dial the power down even more. Having 2 of those just halves the power per speaker, making situation even worse.

Well, we have rehearsals at sunday afternoon - finally...

[zaphod_phil]

If you want to get a lot of volume reduction while keeping the tone fairly natural, then it's probably best to use a VVR and attenuator at the same time, so that neither one is working too hard.

Well, Greenbacks arrived and are installed. I only had a brief chance to test the cabinet at rehearsals, since I have to fill in for our bass player for next saturday's gig.

Greenbacks will need many hours of breaking in before they sound good.

Also, it appears that there's something funny going on with sensitivity ratings. With greenbacks it seems that I can dime the VVR and have fun - but with V30 it's just too f*king loud. No way 3dB difference explains this...

This is probably related to the frequencies where most of that 3dB increase occurs. V30s have a strong emphasis in the upper midrange that human ears are especially sensitive to. It's probably also why you sometimes come across reports that V30s can be tiring or hard on the ears to listen to for a long time.

[s151669]

Greenbacks will need many hours of breaking in before they sound good.

They already did sound better than V30s

This is probably related to the frequencies where most of that 3dB increase occurs. V30s have a strong emphasis in the upper midrange that human ears are especially sensitive to. It's probably also why you sometimes come across reports that V30s can be tiring or hard on the ears to listen to for a long time.

Yeah. They are tiring to listen to. Still, just by comparing frequency response charts of V30 and Greenback there is not much obvious difference. There is a minor dip in Greenback response between 1kHz and 2kHz. V30 has this too, but it is smaller. Then again the published responsed by Celestion are kind of rough compared for example to Eminence.