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Low Voltage

Posted: Sun 12/13/20 10:19 am
by Kcz5o
Can anyone tell me if there is an issue with these voltages? I put together a JTM45+ kit using tube depot instructions but used a different power transformer. I think what I used should have higher voltage rather than lower voltage. The amp uses el34s. I will attach the voltage chart and the power transformer pdf. Thanks for all the help I've received from the forum.
JTM45+ Voltage.pdf
p-tm45p_datasheet.pdf

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Sun 12/13/20 1:18 pm
by TriodeLuvr
I'm a newcomer here, but I've been in audio/electronics for many years. Most of of those voltages aren't critical and aren't likely to degrade amplifier performance. The most significant effect potentially is that the reduced voltage on the anodes of the output tubes will limit output power somewhat.

Jack

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Sun 12/13/20 1:38 pm
by JMPGuitars
TriodeLuvr wrote:
Sun 12/13/20 1:18 pm
I'm a newcomer here, but I've been in audio/electronics for many years. Most of of those voltages aren't critical and aren't likely to degrade amplifier performance. The most significant effect potentially is that the reduced voltage on the anodes of the output tubes will limit output power somewhat.
It's not just output power; a large variance in plate voltage will also change distortion & tone characteristics. Depending on the tube, it can also contribute to unwanted crossover distortion levels, or other issues.
Kcz5o wrote:
Sun 12/13/20 10:19 am
Can anyone tell me if there is an issue with these voltages? I put together a JTM45+ kit using tube depot instructions but used a different power transformer. I think what I used should have higher voltage rather than lower voltage. The amp uses el34s. I will attach the voltage chart and the power transformer pdf. Thanks for all the help I've received from the forum.
Please post your schematic so we have a reference.

Thanks,
Josh

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Sun 12/13/20 2:19 pm
by TriodeLuvr
Crossover distortion won't be an issue if bias is adjustable. And the difference in anode voltage is only about 10%. Line voltage varies more than that in many areas. Definitely not worth changing out the PT unless an exact clone is the goal (in which case, a different transformer probably wouldn't have been used). Not trying to start an argument, but the sound will almost certainly be very close to the original kit.

All that aside, I'm curious why the OP believes the replacement transformer should deliver a higher, not lower, voltage. Maybe something is pulling it down.

Jack

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Sun 12/13/20 2:37 pm
by JMPGuitars
TriodeLuvr wrote:
Sun 12/13/20 2:19 pm
Crossover distortion won't be an issue if bias is adjustable. And the difference in anode voltage is only about 10%. Line voltage varies more than that in many areas. Definitely not worth changing out the PT unless an exact clone is the goal (in which case, a different transformer probably wouldn't have been used). Not trying to start an argument, but the sound will almost certainly be very close to the original kit.

All that aside, I'm curious why the OP believes the replacement transformer should deliver a higher, not lower, voltage. Maybe something is pulling it down.

Jack
I didn't specify the tube, crossover distortion can also be affected by the PI plates.

I'm not arguing either (only adding information), and I also don't know why the PT is in question. If the voltages are off, then the voltages can obviously be adjusted within the circuit (assuming the cause isn't because of a bad component or bad soldering, in which case it needs fixing, not adjusting).

Either way, we would need a schematic and build photos to form informed opinions about this specific case.

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Sun 12/13/20 3:12 pm
by Kcz5o
Thanks everyone. I will attach a schematic. I readjusted the bias as it was a bit low. I seems to sound good. I was just wondering if the voltage differences were an issue. Thanks
jtm45plus_schematic_v4.pdf

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Sun 12/13/20 4:09 pm
by JMPGuitars
Kcz5o wrote:
Sun 12/13/20 3:12 pm
Thanks everyone. I will attach a schematic. I readjusted the bias as it was a bit low. I seems to sound good. I was just wondering if the voltage differences were an issue. Thanks
If the amp sounds good and there are no issues, then the voltages being lower isn't an issue. If the voltages were too high, that could be an issue. The only voltages that aren't really safe to be lower than spec is the heater voltages.

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Sun 12/13/20 5:53 pm
by Kcz5o
Great! Thanks

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Sun 12/13/20 6:33 pm
by TriodeLuvr
I see now why you didn't expect a lower voltage with the transformer you used. Have you checked your line voltage where the amp is plugged in (with the amp turned on)? Will your voltmeter allow measuring the AC voltage across the secondary (one-half at a time might be safer). Were there any other changes to the power supply, such as the filter caps? The lower voltage probably isn't too important, but now I'm curious.

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Tue 12/15/20 12:08 pm
by Kcz5o
You just triggered a thought. I powered it up and took measurements using a dim bulb limiter with like a 250 watt bulb. Would that make a difference I haven't checked the wall voltage. All components are exactly like the schematic. I did make one mistake while bench testing. I had placed a clip with a resister from ground to the filter cap and forgot to take it off at one point during testing. I had it hooked up to the limiter and the light got real bright and the amp started to smoke. I killed the power immediately. I don’t think the filter cap was damaged as the amp is dead silent.

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Tue 12/15/20 1:23 pm
by geoff 1965
I did the same once,I measured my voltages through a bulb limiter and had a voltage drop of about 20V so posted my concern“to the amusement of the senior amp techs!”
post your power tube voltages as well as the preamp tubes and your B+ at first capacitor.

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Tue 12/15/20 3:28 pm
by Kcz5o
I will have to remeasure my voltages without the limiter. I should be a constant source of entertainment for the senior amp techs :-)

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Tue 12/15/20 6:35 pm
by TriodeLuvr
Kcz5o wrote:
Tue 12/15/20 12:08 pm
You just triggered a thought. I powered it up and took measurements using a dim bulb limiter with like a 250 watt bulb. Would that make a difference I haven't checked the wall voltage. All components are exactly like the schematic. I did make one mistake while bench testing. I had placed a clip with a resister from ground to the filter cap and forgot to take it off at one point during testing. I had it hooked up to the limiter and the light got real bright and the amp started to smoke. I killed the power immediately. I don’t think the filter cap was damaged as the amp is dead silent.
Yes, the limiter is almost certain to be the issue. The amp smoked?? That can't be good. Was the clip on the main filter cap just off the rectifier? If there's nothing visible, you need to discharge the caps and sniff around the chassis to see what smells. Might be the supply diodes if the switch was set to solid state. I wouldn't let this go, even if it seems to work OK. You need to determine what smoked.

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Tue 12/15/20 7:13 pm
by Kcz5o
It was on the filter cap that is hooked to the choke. I rechecked to voltage at the plates for the power tubes and it was around 460. Schematic says 482. Rebiased as the bias was a little high when I rechecked. It seems to work fine on both tube rectifier and when I switch to the diodes. Not sure what else I need to look for.

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Tue 12/15/20 7:21 pm
by Kcz5o
It was the connection at the filter cap that smoked. Sorry, went back and read my reply. Nothing appears burnt.

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Tue 12/15/20 7:44 pm
by Kcz5o
I have to change my response. I thought if the amp had sound in both positions ss and tube, that meant the diodes were good. I pulled the rectifier tube and now do not have sound in both positions. Will have to check and see how many diodes I ordered.

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Tue 12/15/20 11:08 pm
by TriodeLuvr
Right, the switch simply shunts the diodes across the 5AR4. If they're open, nothing happens when you switch to SS. The 5AR4 continues to supply B+. Easy to get fooled by that one!

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Wed 12/16/20 8:00 am
by Kcz5o
Replaced the diodes and works without the tube. I've only put two kits together so far and I usually screw something up. I guess that how I learn more as long as its not fatal. I'm usually very careful. I drain the caps whenever I get close to the amp explaining how I forgot the drain resister.

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Wed 12/16/20 10:53 am
by Kcz5o
One more quick question and hopefully I will be done. There is one more diode in the bias supply. If that also was damaged it either works or it doesn't correct? I am able to adjust the bias and it is stable so should be ok?

Re: Low Voltage

Posted: Wed 12/16/20 12:11 pm
by TriodeLuvr
Kcz5o wrote:
Wed 12/16/20 10:53 am
One more quick question and hopefully I will be done. There is one more diode in the bias supply. If that also was damaged it either works or it doesn't correct? I am able to adjust the bias and it is stable so should be ok?
Based on your description of the problem, there's no reason to think the bias diode has been damaged. You know, I'm surprised the short across the caps didn't blow the HV fuse. The limiter must have been responsible for that. You might want to consider replacing those 1N4007s with something better at some point in the future. I use fast recovery 3A types in most builds at this voltage level. Glad you got it working!