Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

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TriodeLuvr
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by TriodeLuvr »

JMPGuitars wrote:
Sun 01/03/21 5:35 pm

lol, if you're referring to the screen resistors, we were basically arguing two different points. I was right about that though. ;) ;)
That wasn't it, and I'm not sure I should remind you. :) Seriously, it's the issue of bias changing with power output in self-biased AB1 stages. The more current flows through the tubes, the higher the voltage across the cathode RC becomes. I'm surprised this isn't better known in the guitar amp world, but maybe the audible effect is mostly hidden because the tubes are already in overdrive when it happens. Anyway, this is why I suggested that he measure the cathode voltage when he's playing through the amp. If there's a significant increase, he might need to lower the R (hotter bias) or substantially increase the C, as you suggested.

Bieworm, my other suggestion is that you copy the PI from the JCM800. I don't have time at the moment to run a sim on the configuration you posted, but it's not correct. Just copy the Marshall design. No reason to use a cathodyne or anything else. This could very well be the problem.

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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by JMPGuitars »

If it were in front of me, I would correct the LTP PI, raise the power tube cathode capacitor substantially, and possibly add a snubber if needed.

Bieworm, Make your PI match this schematic but don't mismatch the plate resistors: https://mhuss.com/Plexi6V6/Plexi6V6.gif
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by TriodeLuvr »

JMPGuitars wrote:
Sun 01/03/21 8:30 pm
Bieworm, Make your PI match this schematic but don't mismatch the plate resistors: https://mhuss.com/Plexi6V6/Plexi6V6.gif
I'm wondering why you suggested this.

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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by crgfrench »

Bieworm wrote:
Sun 01/03/21 3:33 pm
I changed this paraphase phase inverter into a LPT PI. It sounded immediately better with the LPT. Volume is more controlable.
The paraphase added too much gain.
Should I try cathodyne instead?
If your issue is too much gain, you shouldn't switch to a cathodyne type.
The typical cathodyne setup provides twice the gain of an LTP.
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by crgfrench »

TriodeLuvr wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 12:05 am
I'm wondering why you suggested this.
Some people believe that a slightly unbalanced PI (by not compensating one of the load resistors) provides a sweeter sound.
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by crgfrench »

Sorry for the late reply here, since you alleviated the problem by changing from para to LTP already, but if you decide to try again with the paraphase one thing I would do is separate the Ks on U5a and U5b: Change R71 from 820R to 1k5 (keeping it on the u5a K) and add a new "R71b" also 1k5 on the U5b K. The shared K bias resistor induces positive feedback which can lead to instability. Maybe separating them would have helped.
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by Bieworm »

crgfrench wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 12:57 am
Sorry for the late reply here, since you alleviated the problem by changing from para to LTP already, but if you decide to try again with the paraphase one thing I would do is separate the Ks on U5a and U5b: Change R71 from 820R to 1k5 (keeping it on the u5a K) and add a new "R71b" also 1k5 on the U5b K. The shared K bias resistor induces positive feedback which can lead to instability. Maybe separating them would have helped.
Does that mean that with the LPT, which has a shared K resistor too, can lead to positive feedback too?
I don't remember what schem I followed for the LPT, but there is an 820R cathode resistor on mine. Maybe the 470R is better for a hotter bias. Foolishly I added an extra tail resistor of 1.5K in series with the 10k.. can't remember why, but I probably put it there to add a NFB loop in case I wanted to...
Here's what actually is in the amp now. Notice the 1k2 screen resistors on the 6v6, the extra 1000pf 3kV snubber cap and on the PI grids there are 470k grid stoppers ( coming from 0 to 1k5 to 10k to 470k)
16097452412112507165341271126422.jpg
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by Bieworm »

crgfrench wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 12:09 am
Bieworm wrote:
Sun 01/03/21 3:33 pm
I changed this paraphase phase inverter into a LPT PI. It sounded immediately better with the LPT. Volume is more controlable.
The paraphase added too much gain.
Should I try cathodyne instead?
If your issue is too much gain, you shouldn't switch to a cathodyne type.
The typical cathodyne setup provides twice the gain of an LTP.
I thought the cathodyne provided the least gain of the tree PI types?
In ascending order:
1 cathodyne
2 LPT
3 paraphase

Or am I wrong?
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by Bieworm »

TriodeLuvr wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 12:05 am
JMPGuitars wrote:
Sun 01/03/21 8:30 pm
Bieworm, Make your PI match this schematic but don't mismatch the plate resistors: https://mhuss.com/Plexi6V6/Plexi6V6.gif
I'm wondering why you suggested this.

Jack
I tried the 82k + 100k already. But since there is such nasty fizz on the OD there is not much to notice about the extra sweetness... put it back to 100+100k
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by Bieworm »

JMPGuitars wrote:
Sun 01/03/21 8:30 pm
If it were in front of me, I would correct the LTP PI, raise the power tube cathode capacitor substantially, and possibly add a snubber if needed.

Bieworm, Make your PI match this schematic but don't mismatch the plate resistors: https://mhuss.com/Plexi6V6/Plexi6V6.gif
I will try the huss plexi power section you suggested. I intended to do that in the first place, but eventually didn't for some reason.
I only have a 1000uf and a 4700uf 63V electrolytic cap .. should I try the latter?

About Jack's suggestion on lowering the 6V6 cathode resistor and fire up the bias to 100% ...makes sense in a way to avoid blocking distortion or is it just going to make things worse? This amp is so damn loud already. I even added a 1/4 power switch to be able to play it at home 😉
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by TriodeLuvr »

Bieworm wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 2:33 am

I thought the cathodyne provided the least gain of the tree PI types?
In ascending order:
1 cathodyne
2 LPT
3 paraphase
The cathodyne is the least only if we don't consider the other half of the tube. If we think about the 12AX7 driver as a whole, then the cathodyne PI will have one half of the tube with a gain of roughly 50 driving the other half (the actual cathodyne stage) with a gain of about unity. The LTP exhibits gain of about half that amount or a little more.

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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by TriodeLuvr »

Bieworm wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 2:38 am

I only have a 1000uf and a 4700uf 63V electrolytic cap .. should I try the latter?
Those are BIG caps for this purpose. What you gain with larger caps is a longer time constant. If this is a bias problem, that means a sustained overdrive will take longer to create the fizz. However, as the signal falls away, the unwanted distortion will stay with you longer because bias will take longer to normalize.
About Jack's suggestion on lowering the 6V6 cathode resistor and fire up the bias to 100% ...makes sense in a way to avoid blocking distortion or is it just going to make things worse? This amp is so damn loud already. I even added a 1/4 power switch to be able to play it at home 😉
Just so we're on the same page regarding terminology, blocking distortion is what happens when a too-large signal draws grid current on positive peaks, causing the grid of the power tubes to move negative. That can have a similar effect, but it's a totally different cause, and the smallish coupling caps that are typical in guitar amps tend to minimize it as a problem.

What I was referring to earlier is cathode bias shift, and it's specific to self-biased Class AB1 amplifiers. At idle, the DC voltage on the cathodes is determined by the current through the tubes and the value of the cathode resistor. However, when the tubes are driven with a signal, they draw more current, because this is AB1 operation. That additional current creates more positive DC voltage at the cathodes, pushing the tubes in the direction of cutoff (the grids become more negative, relative to the cathodes). Depending on the specific combination of resistor value, signal level, RC time constant and signal duration, the result can be significant crossover distortion. The tubes will operate closer to Class B than AB1, and they will continue to do so until average current falls and the cathode capacitor discharges.

I want to stress that this might or might not have anything to do with the problem you're having. It's just one of the things to nail down, given the nature of what you're experiencing. This is why I suggested monitoring the DC voltage at the cathodes while you listen to the problem. If you have a DVM, clip lead it to the cathodes and ground, and watch what happens when you smack the amp. You might find that certain cathode voltage levels correspond to what you're hearing.

Not sure how practical this might be for you, but another approach would be to temporarily ground the cathodes and apply fixed grid bias. In a pinch, you could use three 9V batteries in series and a 100K pot. The batteries will last many hours in that configuration, much longer than you would need to do a listening test.

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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by JMPGuitars »

Bieworm wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 2:38 am
JMPGuitars wrote:
Sun 01/03/21 8:30 pm
If it were in front of me, I would correct the LTP PI, raise the power tube cathode capacitor substantially, and possibly add a snubber if needed.

Bieworm, Make your PI match this schematic but don't mismatch the plate resistors: https://mhuss.com/Plexi6V6/Plexi6V6.gif
I will try the huss plexi power section you suggested. I intended to do that in the first place, but eventually didn't for some reason.
I only have a 1000uf and a 4700uf 63V electrolytic cap .. should I try the latter?

About Jack's suggestion on lowering the 6V6 cathode resistor and fire up the bias to 100% ...makes sense in a way to avoid blocking distortion or is it just going to make things worse? This amp is so damn loud already. I even added a 1/4 power switch to be able to play it at home 😉
I would use the 1000µF cap. The higher one will make the amp way too stiff.

You're not that far off from Huss' PI. Your cathode resistor is too high, and that could be part of the problem. You might also need to raise the tail resistor. You can try 15k to 27k and see what happens.

BTW- the PI sweetness is what you currently have setup. 100K on both plates is what gives you the desired imbalance. 82K + 100K is an attempt at balancing (even though the values aren't perfect).
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by JMPGuitars »

crgfrench wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 12:11 am
TriodeLuvr wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 12:05 am
I'm wondering why you suggested this.
Some people believe that a slightly unbalanced PI (by not compensating one of the load resistors) provides a sweeter sound.
Yup. The (almost) perfectly balanced PI is more for hifi than guitar.
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by Bieworm »

You're not that far off from Huss' PI. Your cathode resistor is too high, and that could be part of the problem. You might also need to raise the tail resistor. You can try 15k to 27k and see what happens.
You mean lower the cathode resistor from the PI, no? I'll go for the 470R then...
Do I need to swap the coupling caps too from .01 to .022? Is there a problem leaving the .1uf cap to ground as is?
The amp has plenty of bass, so maybe leaving the .01uf caps in isn't a bad idea? Unless I'm missing something...
And about the cathode resistor of the 6V6's.. leave it at 83% or check if the near 100% is better?
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by JMPGuitars »

Bieworm wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 7:36 am
You mean lower the cathode resistor from the PI, no? I'll go for the 470R then...
Correct, 470R.

Do I need to swap the coupling caps too from .01 to .022? Is there a problem leaving the .1uf cap to ground as is?
The amp has plenty of bass, so maybe leaving the .01uf caps in isn't a bad idea? Unless I'm missing something...
You can leave the caps alone on the PI. They're fine.

And about the cathode resistor of the 6V6's.. leave it at 83% or check if the near 100% is better?
I wouldn't recommend changing that. I think the problem (or at least most of it) is in the PI. In fact, I would also recommend lowering the grid stopper resistors on the power tubes once the issue is sorted out.
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by Bieworm »

Thanks Josh

I just bought what I need. Even the snubber circuit. Except the 8M2 were only available in 1/4 watt.. I hope that's ok.
That company is probably going to provide me with the siglent and take back the utd.
Also bought a 8R 50W for a dummy load. That signal generator is driving me insane 😉

Once this gets sorted out I'm going to try lowering the B + and see..
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by JMPGuitars »

Bieworm wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 9:15 am
Thanks Josh

I just bought what I need. Even the snubber circuit. Except the 8M2 were only available in 1/4 watt.. I hope that's ok.
That company is probably going to provide me with the siglent and take back the utd.
Also bought a 8R 50W for a dummy load. That signal generator is driving me insane 😉

Once this gets sorted out I'm going to try lowering the B + and see..
1/4 watt is not okay. 8.2M is available in 1W Carbon Film, and you can also find it in 1W metal film. I use the carbon film - 500V working, 1000V surge.

I use a speaker motor loaded attenuator as my dummy load. I can still hear the thing, but it's quiet enough.
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by Bieworm »

JMPGuitars wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 9:41 am
Bieworm wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 9:15 am
Thanks Josh

I just bought what I need. Even the snubber circuit. Except the 8M2 were only available in 1/4 watt.. I hope that's ok.
That company is probably going to provide me with the siglent and take back the utd.
Also bought a 8R 50W for a dummy load. That signal generator is driving me insane 😉

Once this gets sorted out I'm going to try lowering the B + and see..
1/4 watt is not okay. 8.2M is available in 1W Carbon Film, and you can also find it in 1W metal film. I use the carbon film - 500V working, 1000V surge.

I use a speaker motor loaded attenuator as my dummy load. I can still hear the thing, but it's quiet enough.
Then the snubber circuit has to wait until I order stuff next time in Germany. Let's get this PI to operate properly in the meantime
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Re: Parasitic oscillation problem untraceable

Post by crgfrench »

Bieworm wrote:
Mon 01/04/21 2:33 am

I thought the cathodyne provided the least gain of the tree PI types?
In ascending order:
1 cathodyne
2 LPT
3 paraphase

Or am I wrong?

That sequence only includes the one PI triode in the cathodyne. When you include the other one in the tube (which you would in reality) as a gain stage, the tube generates 2x the gain as the same tube operating as LTP.
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