Advice needed...

[The4thWatcher13]

Show me a couple photos of the inside of your guitar. Thanks, Josh

Man, I hate putting a new set of strings on, stretching them, tuning them, playing them and going, "..nice", and then cutting them off!

Seriously? I find restringing to be a very satisfying time

Yeah, I can agree, but It's the whole putting them on and cutting them off again pretty much right away due to not having done the electrics right part that's a bummer. But then I get to put new ones on again, and we're back to satisfaction!

[JMPGuitars]

Yeah, I can agree, but It's the whole putting them on and cutting them off again pretty much right away due to not having done the electrics right part that's a bummer. But then I get to put new ones on again, and we're back to satisfaction!

Don't rush to put them back on. I'm likely to suggest you change some things.

[The4thWatcher13]

Well, here we go. Pics of the inside of the Squire. I immediately see something that may be suspect in light of Josh's statements. That being the bridge ground, which is soldered to the shielding inside the pickup cavity.
Don't know why I did that, it was years ago. I'm assuming not a good idea when the jack cavity is grounded to the main cavity and the bridge ground goes to the Vol pickup anyway. This is dual conductivity copper tape, by the way, and the entire shield is "connected". And thanks for warning me about re-stringing right away. I'm in standby mode, bro. Let me know if you need better pics. Thanks Josh!
PS. the blue wire (jack ground) and the bridge ground wire (black) aren't connected to the vol pot at the moment)

[JMPGuitars]

Cut those black wires out that do nothing besides connecting the pots to each other. That's your biggest ground loop. The shielding is already connecting them to each other.

I would connect your output ground and the bridge ground to the same point, preferably on the volume pot, but doesn't have to be.

Thanks,
Josh

[The4thWatcher13]

Cut those black wires out that do nothing besides connecting the pots to each other. That's your biggest ground loop. The shielding is already connecting them to each other. I would connect your output ground and the bridge ground to the same point, preferably on the volume pot, but doesn't have to be. Thanks, Josh

Oh man, in regard to that ground lead from pot to pot, I didn't stop to think that the 60's & 70's Strats didn't have shielding and therefore needed the ground lead! Taking it out now. Can testing for the results of the current repair be tested without strings? Are there other common "stringless" tests that folks do to avert having to waste a pair of strings when they're doing electrical mods or repairs?

[The4thWatcher13]

Okie dokie, I think I have reasonable excuse to be excited. I made the changes Josh stated and voila, with the guitar (stringless) on "10" and the amp on "10" I can truly say it's dead quite. No buzz no proximity EI and yes, I tapped the pickups to make sure it was on! I think it's safe to restring it unless Josh has some Jedi tricks up his sleeve for me!

[JMPGuitars]

It sounds like you're ready to rock. Record a demo. With strings.

[The4thWatcher13]

It sounds like you're ready to rock. Record a demo. With strings.

Argh! I'm not ready to rock! After putting strings back on the same situation presents itself. Serious buzz on single coil switch positions, no buzz on dual coil. I replaced the bridge ground lead so it's only connected to Vol pot. And the jack ground is soldered to the Vol pot as well.
Please tell me if the following is OK: the shielding inside the jack well is grounded to the pickup cavity via soldered wire. Which is the way it's always been. But the pickup cavity shielding is now only connected to the common ground by a physical connection to the shielding on the rear of the pick guard when screwed down. Seeing that we were attempting to eliminate potential ground loops, as stated above, I replaced the bridge ground lead with one only connected to the Vol pot. In the pic above you can see how it was originally soldered to the pickup cavity on it's way to the Vol pot.
(I know it can be hard to help someone when they're changing things, without prompting, that may or may not make a difference; I'll try to restrain myself further. Apologies)
Audio sample of selector switch below.

[JMPGuitars]

It sounds like you're ready to rock. Record a demo. With strings.

Argh! I'm not ready to rock! After putting strings back on the same situation presents itself. Serious buzz on single coil switch positions, no buzz on dual coil. I replaced the bridge ground lead so it's only connected to Vol pot. And the jack ground is soldered to the Vol pot as well.
Please tell me if the following is OK: the shielding inside the jack well is grounded to the pickup cavity via soldered wire. Which is the way it's always been. But the pickup cavity shielding is now only connected to the common ground by a physical connection to the shielding on the rear of the pick guard when screwed down. Seeing that we were attempting to eliminate potential ground loops, as stated above, I replaced the bridge ground lead with one only connected to the Vol pot. In the pic above you can see how it was originally soldered to the pickup cavity on it's way to the Vol pot.
(I know it can be hard to help someone when they're changing things, without prompting, that may or may not make a difference; I'll try to restrain myself further. Apologies)
Audio sample of selector switch below.

Remove the shielding from the jack well. Check for continuity between the bridge and the pots (keep the guitar closed, just check under the knobs). There should be continuity between the bridge and tuners, and the jack plate and bridge as well. Assuming that's all good, make another recording in a buzzy position, and touch the strings, and let go of the strings a few times.

After you make the string-touching/not touching recording, just play a little and see how it sounds on the recording also. A big question is the difference between playing volume and the guitar noise.

It's quite likely you simply have slightly noisy pickups, and that noise is being amplified. What I heard in that recording doesn't sound terrible, though I'm not a fan, so I only use noiseless pickups. Lace and DiMarzio make my favorites (I'm a dealer for both, and a few other brands), but the lead time on getting anything from DiMarzio right now is cuckoo. I ordered stuff in November, and I think April, and I'm still waiting on both orders.

Thanks,
Josh

[The4thWatcher13]

Remove the shielding from the jack well. Check for continuity between the bridge and the pots (keep the guitar closed, just check under the knobs). There should be continuity between the bridge and tuners, and the jack plate and bridge as well.

Shielding and connecting lead has been removed from the jack cavity. There is continuity between the bridge, jack plate, tuners and all pots.

Assuming that's all good, make another recording in a buzzy position, and touch the strings, and let go of the strings a few times. After you make the string-touching/not touching recording, just play a little and see how it sounds on the recording also. A big question is the difference between playing volume and the guitar noise.

Recording provided below. There is no noticeable change in the buzz when the strings are muted and when they're not. While I'm playing the buzz can still be heard at a constant level. I'll note again that regardless of where I stand in the room the buzz fades to a basically unnoticeable level when I'm standing in front or to the side of the speaker on a 45 deg. axis to the speaker. (that is at 2:00 or 8:00 so to speak) Shields are on V1 & V2. I've only got one EBY TS10U03 shield that'll fit the 6CU5 tubes but haven't been able to find another one anywhere.

It's quite likely you simply have slightly noisy pickups, and that noise is being amplified. What I heard in that recording doesn't sound terrible, though I'm not a fan, so I only use noiseless pickups. Lace and DiMarzio make my favorites (I'm a dealer for both, and a few other brands), but the lead time on getting anything from DiMarzio right now is cuckoo. I ordered stuff in November, and I think April, and I'm still waiting on both orders. Thanks, Josh

You may be right about the pickups. I bought them from a guy on Craigs years ago. They came in the Fender box et, al. I compared them to images online and I think they're the real deal, tho this may be why the guy sold 'em! Thanks again Josh!

[The4thWatcher13]

Remove the shielding from the jack well. Check for continuity between the bridge and the pots (keep the guitar closed, just check under the knobs). There should be continuity between the bridge and tuners, and the jack plate and bridge as well.

Shielding and connecting lead has been removed from the jack cavity. There is continuity between the bridge, jack plate, tuners and all pots.

Assuming that's all good, make another recording in a buzzy position, and touch the strings, and let go of the strings a few times. After you make the string-touching/not touching recording, just play a little and see how it sounds on the recording also. A big question is the difference between playing volume and the guitar noise.

Recording provided below. There is no noticeable change in the buzz when the strings are muted and when they're not. While I'm playing the buzz can still be heard during no play passages and seems to stay at a constant level. I'll note again that regardless of where I stand in the room the buzz fades to a basically unnoticeable level when I'm standing in front or to the side of the speaker on a 45 deg. axis to the speaker. (that is at 2:00 or 8:00 so to speak) Shields are on V1 & V2. I've only got one EBY TS10U03 shield that'll fit the 6CU5 tubes but haven't been able to find another one anywhere.

It's quite likely you simply have slightly noisy pickups, and that noise is being amplified. What I heard in that recording doesn't sound terrible, though I'm not a fan, so I only use noiseless pickups. Lace and DiMarzio make my favorites (I'm a dealer for both, and a few other brands), but the lead time on getting anything from DiMarzio right now is cuckoo. I ordered stuff in November, and I think April, and I'm still waiting on both orders. Thanks, Josh

You may be right about the pickups. I bought them from a guy on Craigs years ago. They came in the Fender box et, al. I compared them to images online and I think they're the real deal, tho this may be why the guy sold 'em! Thanks again Josh!

[JMPGuitars]

You may be right about the pickups. I bought them from a guy on Craigs years ago. They came in the Fender box et, al. I compared them to images online and I think they're the real deal, tho this may be why the guy sold 'em! Thanks again Josh!

I don't think those pickups sound great. You should see if you can get access to a guitar with humbuckers or noiseless singles and see how it sounds. The noise in context with the playing isn't overbearing in the recording, but you should try something with better pickups to rule out the amp. I wouldn't tinker with the amp until you can try another guitar, or better pickups in that guitar.

Thanks,
Josh

[The4thWatcher13]

You may be right about the pickups. I bought them from a guy on Craigs years ago. They came in the Fender box et, al. I compared them to images online and I think they're the real deal, tho this may be why the guy sold 'em! Thanks again Josh!

I don't think those pickups sound great. You should see if you can get access to a guitar with humbuckers or noiseless singles and see how it sounds. The noise in context with the playing isn't overbearing in the recording, but you should try something with better pickups to rule out the amp. I wouldn't tinker with the amp until you can try another guitar, or better pickups in that guitar. Thanks, Josh

Well the guitar I've been using is my "Franken-shop" guitar, a '93 Squire that I've been trying to make into as much of a "silk purse" as possible. I've got a second tho, a '16 Strat Elite, that is doing the exact same thing as the Squire. The wiring is a bit more complicated but some switch positions are noisier than others and the overall buzz level is disheartening. And this guitar has third or fourth gen noiseless pickups. I haven't had it open yet but it needs new strings so I'm gonna crack it tonight just to make sure everything is everything. So considering that it behaves in the same fashion as the other I'm assuming it's the amp. I still have Phil's timely warning ringing in my ears about transformer proximity and or orientation. But no shielding efforts have resulted in a solution so far. Other observations: as mentioned before there is sometimes a "flick flick...flick flick flick" sound that comes through the amp. It usually doesn't last long but it's weird. So I think there might be other things going on here. Either way I'm in it to win it. Thanks Josh
Standing by...

[JMPGuitars]

Well the guitar I've been using is my "Franken-shop" guitar, a '93 Squire that I've been trying to make into as much of a "silk purse" as possible. I've got a second tho, a '16 Strat Elite, that is doing the exact same thing as the Squire. The wiring is a bit more complicated but some switch positions are noisier than others and the overall buzz level is disheartening. And this guitar has third or fourth gen noiseless pickups. I haven't had it open yet but it needs new strings so I'm gonna crack it tonight just to make sure everything is everything. So considering that it behaves in the same fashion as the other I'm assuming it's the amp. I still have Phil's timely warning ringing in my ears about transformer proximity and or orientation. But no shielding efforts have resulted in a solution so far. Other observations: as mentioned before there is sometimes a "flick flick...flick flick flick" sound that comes through the amp. It usually doesn't last long but it's weird. So I think there might be other things going on here. Either way I'm in it to win it. Thanks Josh
Standing by...

Ah, okay. If you have a guitar with noiseless pups doing the same thing, then it's time to inspect the amp.

Unfortunately, if it is the transformers causing the noise, it could be their physical position contributing to it. The relationship between the transformer position from one transformer to the next is very sensitive. Usually when working with a new design, it's best not to mount the transformers completely until you know how they will behave.

The other thing to consider is that PTP builds are often much harder to deal with noise issues. You need to consider your lead dress, and the position of everything in the amp.

What does it sound like if you have the amp on, with no guitar or instrument cable plugged in? What does it sound like when the cable is plugged in?

Thanks,
Josh

[TriodeLuvr]

It's not the transformers. The shielding (copper tape and/or steel boxes) would have made a significant difference if that was the case.

there is sometimes a "flick flick...flick flick flick" sound that comes through the amp. It usually doesn't last long

Do you mean it goes away after the amp warms up? Tubes and coupling caps can both do something similar. I'd like to hear it.

Jack

[The4thWatcher13]

Ah, okay. If you have a guitar with noiseless pups doing the same thing, then it's time to inspect the amp.
Unfortunately, if it is the transformers causing the noise, it could be their physical position contributing to it. The relationship between the transformer position from one transformer to the next is very sensitive. Usually when working with a new design, it's best not to mount the transformers completely until you know how they will behave.
The other thing to consider is that PTP builds are often much harder to deal with noise issues. You need to consider your lead dress, and the position of everything in the amp.
What does it sound like if you have the amp on, with no guitar or instrument cable plugged in? What does it sound like when the cable is plugged in? Thanks, Josh

When the amp is turned on with no cable inserted there is no noise or sound whatsoever until you turn the amp volume to "10", and even then you have to put your ear up the the speaker to hear a very soft low frequency hum. When a guitar is plugged in it works like this:
Single pickup switch positions only
Guitar on 5 and the amp on 10 = bad buzz
Guitar on 10 and the amp on 5= bad buzz
Guitar on 5 and the amp on 5 = low, acceptable buzz; 1/2 vol.
Dual coil switch positions:
Guitar on 10 and amp on 10 = the expected soft, quiet "airy" amp sound. All other guitar and amp levels produce no discernible buzz.

Unfortunately I don't have a guitar with humbuckers but I might be able to borrow one if it's really necessary. If things were a little better around here this would be more than enough reason to have me out at the store scoping Les Paul's or SG's!
Thanks Josh!

[JMPGuitars]

When the amp is turned on with no cable inserted there is no noise or sound whatsoever until you turn the amp volume to "10", and even then you have to put your ear up the the speaker to hear a very soft low frequency hum. When a guitar is plugged in it works like this:
Single pickup switch positions only
Guitar on 5 and the amp on 10 = bad buzz
Guitar on 10 and the amp on 5= bad buzz
Guitar on 5 and the amp on 5 = low, acceptable buzz; 1/2 vol.
Dual coil switch positions:
Guitar on 10 and amp on 10 = the expected soft, quiet "airy" amp sound. All other guitar and amp levels produce no discernible buzz.

Unfortunately I don't have a guitar with humbuckers but I might be able to borrow one if it's really necessary. If things were a little better around here this would be more than enough reason to have me out at the store scoping Les Paul's or SG's!
Thanks Josh!

It sounds like you do need to try a guitar with humbuckers, though the noiseless pups shouldn't have the buzz...but they say F*nder on them, so I won't expect them to live up to anything.

I meant to plug a cable in with nothing attached. Or alternatively you could disconnect the shunt to ground on the input jack and hear what kind of noise the amp makes with nothing plugged in, but the input not grounded out.

Thanks,
Josh

[The4thWatcher13]

It sounds like you do need to try a guitar with humbuckers, though the noiseless pups shouldn't have the buzz...but they say F*nder on them, so I won't expect them to live up to anything.
I meant to plug a cable in with nothing attached. Or alternatively you could disconnect the shunt to ground on the input jack and hear what kind of noise the amp makes with nothing plugged in, but the input not grounded out. Thanks, Josh

Hey guys! My "filaments" haven't dimmed just yet and I'm still here. I just had to deal with some stuff around here that couldn't wait any longer. I did what Josh asked and plugged in a cable, turned the amp on and there was the expected buzz even without touching the tip of the cable. The odd thing was that if I moved the unplugged cable end around the amp I could sort of get an idea what the shape of the electromagnetic field was. I decided to completely wrap the isolation transformer in shielding and that did help a tad. Another odd thing was that the most quiet place for the bare end of the cable was the dead center of the top of the amp, right in between the two transformers and the tubes! Interesting. Anyway, I almost went out and bought a guitar with humbuckers last weekend but I accidentally transferred money to the wrong account by mistake and had to wait until this week to remedy it. I took that as a sign and decided I'm going to borrow a guitar from a friend to see how it behaves with a dual coil guitar. When I do that I'll be back with a report. Thanks again for all your help and I hope things are well for you all. M

[TriodeLuvr]

I did what Josh asked and plugged in a cable, turned the amp on and there was the expected buzz even without touching the tip of the cable.

This can be useful as a sensitive probe to determine the location of AC fields (as you discovered), but it doesn't help much in determining whether those fields are excessively strong. There are just too many things that affect the amplifier's response to the open cable. It might be more meaningful if the far end of the cable was terminated with a resistor approximately equivalent to the impedance of the pickups, but even that doesn't necessarily create a useful reference. The only real reference available to the average person is a known-good guitar (which you're pursuing) or second best, a known-good amplifier.

I decided to completely wrap the isolation transformer in shielding and that did help a tad.

None of the experiments you've done point to the amp or the transformers as the culprits. Just the opposite, in fact. If shielding the transformers doesn't create a significant difference, they're not the problem. Also, about something you said earlier, don't worry about shields on the output tubes. They're mostly self-shielding because the anodes encircle the other components. Whatever small AC voltage might be induced on the anodes from an external source is working against the anode resistance, the load impedance, and is additionally stepped down by the ratio of the output transformer.

I think you're on the right path now, and a guitar that's less sensitive to this will almost certainly resolve the issue.

Jack

[The4thWatcher13]

Thanks, Jack. I'm trying really hard to find an excuse to buy a Les Paul. Maybe not a Gibson, which I certainly would like, but definitely a dual coil axe. There is some nice stuff out there to be had and I've found taking your time searching can really pay off in the end! (yes, I've been looking,..a lot!) I've got a buddy that's one of the local guitar/tech Gods and he said "dude, those are the Single Coil Blues! Not much you can do about it. Been a problem since the beginning."
So, yeah, you can only do what you can do. But I'll keep at it.