First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

18watt-specific Tech Talk - Building, Fixing, Parts, Mods...

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yello
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by yello »

Bieworm wrote:
Thu 05/19/22 7:34 am
Nice sound!!!

Here's a layout of an amp with the 120V pilot. Try to figure it out on yours...
Thanks! I like the sound and will explore more tomorrow when no one is home and I can crank it up.

Diagram helps for wiring the 120v.

Things left to do on the amp:

1) Wire in 120v pilot light.
2) Redo the HV wires to the rectifier (I forgot to twist them and they are a little short).
3) Install and test with vintage tubes instead of the current new production JJ's.
4) I'm pondering adding a Type 3 PPIMV - I figure I can alligator clip a pot in to see if I like it.
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by JMPGuitars »

yello wrote:
Thu 05/19/22 10:22 am
Every part in the amp is what you sent. The layout and instructions were awesome, and the assistance from everyone who chimed in here very helpful. THANK YOU! I've been learning a ton between this and the projector amp troubleshooting.

VERY cool that it works - I've modded several amps, but that is a great feeling for my first complete scratch amp build to fire right up and sound great!

For an enclosure, I'm still pondering/looking. Some of the amps I like are traditionally put in an ammo can, and I might try that for fun on this one. Or if I can find a good Marshall-esque headshell, looking for used at the moment.

Next I'll try my vintage tubes in the amp to see how they sound.
I'm glad everything worked out so well! Yes, it is a much cooler file (at least to me) when building from scratch vs. modding stuff.

You should try contacting Jeff at Swanson Cabinets, he should have the plans to make a cabinet for you.

I imagine the amp should sound even better with real tubes replacing the JJs. ;)

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by yello »

JMPGuitars wrote:
Thu 05/19/22 10:57 am
I'm glad everything worked out so well! Yes, it is a much cooler file (at least to me) when building from scratch vs. modding stuff.

You should try contacting Jeff at Swanson Cabinets, he should have the plans to make a cabinet for you.

I imagine the amp should sound even better with real tubes replacing the JJs. ;)
Agreed, new build was very satisfying, and much easier.

I'll post videos of the amp with JJ's versus vintage tubes, and report if I hear and feel a difference when playing. Either way, v1 is a vintage Mullard.

Any thoughts on how a type 3 PPIMV would sound or react in this one?
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by Bieworm »

yello wrote:
Thu 05/19/22 10:44 am
Bieworm wrote:
Thu 05/19/22 7:34 am
Nice sound!!!

Here's a layout of an amp with the 120V pilot. Try to figure it out on yours...
Thanks! I like the sound and will explore more tomorrow when no one is home and I can crank it up.

Diagram helps for wiring the 120v.

Things left to do on the amp:

1) Wire in 120v pilot light.
2) Redo the HV wires to the rectifier (I forgot to twist them and they are a little short).
3) Install and test with vintage tubes instead of the current new production JJ's.
4) I'm pondering adding a Type 3 PPIMV - I figure I can alligator clip a pot in to see if I like it.
Regarding pt.4: you'll have to be aware that a MV has to be done very tidy. Clipping it in WILL be noisy, and will be better when it's properly done. Use shielded wire for sure!
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by JMPGuitars »

yello wrote:
Thu 05/19/22 11:08 am
Any thoughts on how a type 3 PPIMV would sound or react in this one?
I'm not the guy to ask about PPIMVs, I don't like them. I use an attenuator if I need to drop the volume.
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by Bieworm »

IDK which type it is, but the LarMar does it for me in non-marshall type amps. I haven’t built one in an 18W yet
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by colossal »

Bieworm wrote:
Thu 05/19/22 4:35 pm
IDK which type it is, but the LarMar does it for me in non-marshall type amps. I haven’t built one in an 18W yet
The Type 3/LarMar is effective, however because a Lite IIb preamp and phase inverter are very linear and undistorted, all the magic is in getting the power tubes cooking. So, I typically don't bother with a master as it is another source of noise, unless someone has to have it. If you want to smash the front end with a pedal, then yes, you can get some preamp distortion and the Master would be useful for lower playing volumes. But then you just have compressed, flat sounding preamp distortion and while it can be fine for low volume practice, it's never going to sound like the amp when it's opened up.

I would agree with Josh, that with these amps, an attenutator is probably a better option.
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by JMPGuitars »

colossal wrote:
Sat 05/21/22 7:29 am
however because a Lite IIb preamp and phase inverter are very linear and undistorted
I agree with you in theory, but this isn't a Lite IIb, it's an EF86 Lite 2P. It's a variation on the on EF86 Lite I made using the EF86 circuit/values I prefer. Here's the schematic: files/JMPGuitars_18W_EF86_Lite_2P_Schematic.pdf

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by Unit_1 »

yello wrote:
Thu 05/19/22 10:44 am
Bieworm wrote:
Thu 05/19/22 7:34 am
Nice sound!!!

Here's a layout of an amp with the 120V pilot. Try to figure it out on yours...
Thanks! I like the sound and will explore more tomorrow when no one is home and I can crank it up.

Diagram helps for wiring the 120v.

Things left to do on the amp:

1) Wire in 120v pilot light.
{clipped}
Here's a layout I made stealing the 120v pilot light scheme from some Hiwatt DR504's I made 15 years ago using a DPST instead of SPST switch. The layout is under construction as I have not triple-verified the connections, however the power switch and indicator are dead simple when using DPST.
Image
Last edited by Unit_1 on Sat 05/21/22 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by JMPGuitars »

Unit_1 wrote:
Sat 05/21/22 11:28 am
Here's a layout I made stealing the 120v pilot light scheme from some Hiwatt DR504's I made 15 years ago using a DPDT instead of SPDT switch.
That's a common method when using 120V pilot lamps. However, you should square off the DPST switch body so it isn't confused with SPST if you're going to share it anywhere. That is a DPST that you drew, DPDT would have 6 lugs present.

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by Unit_1 »

JMPGuitars wrote:
Sat 05/21/22 11:41 am
Unit_1 wrote:
Sat 05/21/22 11:28 am
Here's a layout I made stealing the 120v pilot light scheme from some Hiwatt DR504's I made 15 years ago using a DPDT instead of SPDT switch.
That's a common method when using 120V pilot lamps. However, you should square off the DPST switch body so it isn't confused with SPST if you're going to share it anywhere. That is a DPST that you drew, DPDT would have 6 lugs present.

Thanks,
Josh
I only slept 6 hours last night. DPST... doh..
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by JMPGuitars »

Unit_1 wrote:
Sat 05/21/22 12:11 pm
I only slept 6 hours last night. DPST... doh..
lol, 6 hours is a good night for some of us. 🤣
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by Unit_1 »

JMPGuitars wrote:
Sat 05/21/22 12:19 pm
Unit_1 wrote:
Sat 05/21/22 12:11 pm
I only slept 6 hours last night. DPST... doh..
lol, 6 hours is a good night for some of us. 🤣
I used to sleep 5 hours a night in my 40's and 50's, but when I hit 65 in 2021 it's like someone threw a DPST and AllOfASudden I needed 8 a night. At least I got it right on the layout, lol. I edited the mistake out so as not to confuse. Thanks for catching that for me! 8)
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by yello »

Got a chance to make a couple quick tube set comparison videos. Les Paul into 18w into 1x10" cab with 1990 Celestion Vintage 10 with Dr Z Brake Lite attenuator down 2 clicks.

Hopefully there is an audible difference via iPhone thru youtube. I could hear and feel it clearly in the room. Which tube set do you prefer?

Tube set A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_IETOCJ6vQ

Tube set B:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA6GWYiCK00
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by JMPGuitars »

Listening through my computer monitor speakers, I heard more articulation and crunch coming from set B. Neither set sounded bad. For the record, I used to think JJs sounded good, the issue was reliability. Though some people have complained about their tone going down hill in recent years (I wouldn't know, I stopped using them long ago).

You should intonate your guitar better- get a Sonic Research Turbo Tuner if you don't already have one. Nothing is better for intonation.

You should also try playing with the touch sensitivity of the amp. Crank the amp into a decent amount of distortion, and try lightly finger picking to find a clean tone, then punch it a little harder with a pick to get the dirt. Try things in between with different pressure and see how dynamic you can make it.

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by yello »

JMPGuitars wrote:
Sun 05/22/22 7:20 am
Listening through my computer monitor speakers, I heard more articulation and crunch coming from set B. Neither set sounded bad. For the record, I used to think JJs sounded good, the issue was reliability. Though some people have complained about their tone going down hill in recent years (I wouldn't know, I stopped using them long ago).

You should intonate your guitar better- get a Sonic Research Turbo Tuner if you don't already have one. Nothing is better for intonation.

You should also try playing with the touch sensitivity of the amp. Crank the amp into a decent amount of distortion, and try lightly finger picking to find a clean tone, then punch it a little harder with a pick to get the dirt. Try things in between with different pressure and see how dynamic you can make it.

Thanks,
Josh
I definitely have a tube set I prefer, which I'll reveal after a few more people chime in. I should probably find the time at some point to actually carefully set-up and record clips, which I will likely do after the amp is complete and in an enclosure (still looking). I'll tune/intonate the guitar better, mess with controls for optimum settings, etc. - These were just quick clips for basic comparison and I only had a brief time window, I just wanted to at least offer a quick listen.
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by Unit_1 »

Listening through JBL LSR308 studio monitors. Set A sounds muffled compared to B. I listened back and forth, a then b then a then b, etc. B wins.

A sounds like pillows in front of the speaker compared to B...

And now I have to get off my butt and mow the lawn. gaaa...
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by Daviedawg »

There is such a noticeable difference between the clips I wonder what they are. For me B wins with no debate, much clearer with more harmonics.

Dd
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by Bieworm »

yello wrote:
Sat 05/21/22 10:34 pm
Got a chance to make a couple quick tube set comparison videos. Les Paul into 18w into 1x10" cab with 1990 Celestion Vintage 10 with Dr Z Brake Lite attenuator down 2 clicks.

Hopefully there is an audible difference via iPhone thru youtube. I could hear and feel it clearly in the room. Which tube set do you prefer?

Tube set A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_IETOCJ6vQ

Tube set B:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA6GWYiCK00
I vote B too. But it's not the brand per ce.. bias plays a big role too IMHO. You could have had the same effect the other way around.
Both sound pretty good..
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Re: First 18w build - EF86 Lite 2P

Post by JMPGuitars »

Bieworm wrote:
Tue 05/24/22 1:54 pm
I vote B too. But it's not the brand per ce.. bias plays a big role too IMHO. You could have had the same effect the other way around.
Both sound pretty good..
True, bias can play its part. It would be interesting to see voltages from both sets. Still I think if they were biased the same there would likely be a noticeable difference.
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