Any news on Colin's comparison of old amp and new?

[Moose]

I've been poking around, listening to a lot of amp samples and trying various drivers with my recent build and it reminded me tha Colin was going to compare the new amp with the old one he had.

I'm kind of interested in hearing observations, even if the recordings aren't done yet. How close is it? Is it better or worse? How do the speakers compare to the vintage one in the original?

[ColinM]

Moose
The amp arrived here 20 minutes ago! A thing of great beauty it is, too ( in spite of what my girlfriend might think) . I'll be recording it on Wednesday and sending the CDs to Graydon for posting.
My initial impressions are that it weighs the same!
It sounds slightly brighter at speech volume although that may well be due to the speaker (a Weber). The overall feel of the amp is very, very close to the original, however. And the tremolo works far better

I'll be emailing Graydon right now to let him know it's arrived. (I was actually online when the doorbell went!)

Regards, Colin

[Graydon]

Colin,

Glad it arrived OK. As I mentioned already. I really think that the speaker is a little too bright for that amp. It has very little bottom end. My best comparison is to a bunch of 1-12 combos that I have built using reissue Greenbacks and those amps had a very good bottom end with a nice midrange crunch and a pretty nice top end. The Blues have a slightly nicer top end and a much smoother lidrange with a very similar bottom end. The Weber C12B really lacks the bottom. Possibly if it had a bottom end, the top end would be better balanced. Also, since most amps have too much bottom end in a band context, the Weber speaker may actually be perfect for real gigging situations.

I would like to extend a huge thanks to all of the guys that contributed to this project. Many of you donated parts, and materials to build this amp. _Every single_ part in the amp was donated by members of the 18watt community! There was also a large amount of cash donated which covered the shipping charges.

The amp turned out great. Richie built the chassis from parts and tubes that were donated by various members. Jeff Swanson built the cabinet, again from materials that were donated by a number of members. I did thte final assembly and converted it to 240VAC operation. Colin sent me a UK-spec 240VAC wall outlet which I installed in my studio and connected to 240V. (Thanks, Colin.) I used that to verify that the amp would work as intended with 240V power. (for those of you that are curious, I did not detect any difference in the performance of the amp based only on the change from 120V to 240V.)

[Plexi]

Now that is great news... I too want to thank everyone again for all the parts and help on this team amp project. I'm sure we'll all be waiting to hear Colins coments, and any sound clips.

"""And the tremolo works far better """

Thats the only part i changed values just a wee bit from your original..the rest should be same values.. It has a good strong trem..and more control with the intensity down..no speaker thumping..lol
Glad it made the long trip all intact..


Colin enjoy the amp..
Richie

[ColinM]

Guys

I thank you all from the bottom of my heart. Having lived with it for another hour , I should add that the overall standard of materials and assembly is in another league altogether from the original. A bit like comparing an old Les Paul junior with a new PRS. The LP may be infinitely more collectable and may be a fabulous, playable instrument in its own right; but in no way does it compare to the PRS in terms of standard of construction and quality of parts. I think you know what I mean

I take on board entirely what Graydon is saying about the Weber Blue Dog speaker. I can't comment about the bottom end 'till I can turn it up loud, but at room volume it is noticeably brighter than the sound I had from the original. Maybe speakers dull with age; perhaps on the 7th of July 1967 my old original sounded like this - we'll never know. In the fullness of time, I may get round to trying other speakers; you'll all be the first to know if I do.

The main thing you all probably want to ask is; 'does it have the same vibe-the same feel as the original'. My answer is unhesitatingly 'Yes,yes,yes!'
It has the same pick attack, the same 'in your face' directness/focus of tone (much loved of sound engineers including myself), even at low volume and the same 'shimmering' harmonic complexity, yes, even at clean volumes.
I plugged in 3 Fenders just now, and like its old predecessor, it has an unerring ability to highlight the tonal differences between the guitars: something my Boogie fails to do to anything like the same extent.

I'll be reporting back in the days to come. You'll probably all be sick of me before too long

Once again; Thank you all
Colin

[drgork]

Colin,

I agree with Graydon that the bottom is not as good as a Greenback or some of the other Celestions. The Weber has a definite chime, but lacking some of the low end meat. If you get an opportunity, try a G12H or GB and let us know what you think. Graydon, has a good point about live playing and that the Weber may work fine.

Glad to hear it made it over the pond in one piece! Enjoy!

Danny

[Graydon]

I used a complete double box packing on that one. There was no way it was going to be damaged by any carrier.

That amp sounded really nice. The combination of parts definitely had some of Ritchie's private stash of mojo in it. I think Glenn built and stuffed the eyelet board and Ritchie provided the lead dress layout. There were a couple Mullard tubes provided from some members and although I don't subscribe to a whole lot of tube hocus pocus, it certainly doesn't hurt to use good NOS tubes.

Do we want to post porn shots?

Of course we do...

[Plexi]

Colin & Graydon.. or all for that matter...lol I think as was posted before, the mojo came from this just being a great thing to do,and everyone involved..

As for the way these amps sound or work.. its very subtle,but the tone control on the normal channel.. tone control seems to peak at about 8 {sweet spot}..if you turn up past that,it seems it takes away just a wee bit of volume.. have to listen close to hear the difference..

Colin,i don't think you'll bore us with anthing you'd like to post..lol
were all ears! I'd say as the others posted.. extra brightness is probably the speaker..i think some of the webers have to be broken in. Easy to change or plug in a different speaker..{added feature the old ones didn't have) just unplug the one in the amp..and plug in a different speaker to try..it has multiple tap jacks for different speaker hookups..and a trem switch if you don't want to use the footswitch..

In these amps are little bright, might be good..if an amp turns out dull or bassy..you can't do anything to make it brighter..well unless you tweak things inside..lol If it is brighter..humbuckers will work better, and you can always use the tone on the amp or guitar to remove a bit of highs.. But if an amp is to bassy or dull sounding with guitar and amp controls full up..theres no way to make it brighter.. i think you see what i mean.. Speakers can make all the difference in the world..

I played the amp through my 2x12 old greenbacks.. it sounded great..plenty of chunk and bottom..

Richie

[ColinM]

Hi guys
today I managed to get the amp wound up full. Very interesting. My first impressions were that the bottom filled out nicely at high volume, and that the amp was a touch more 'polite' than the original. There seems to be a bit more gain on the normal channel than on the trem/bright channel. Is this the case, Richie? I take on board completely what you say about brightness being no bad thing. I may well try a G12M RI just to hear the effect of a less bright speaker. I can get one for £50 in Glasgow (Appian loudspeakers).

The Weber is a nice speaker IMHO; it has a 'chiminess' which complements the guitar in the picture to a tee. A bit bright with a strat, perhaps, but the tone controls don't kill the sound the way they do in the original.

Tomorrow I'm off to the studio to do my 'test' recordings with my stock Telecaster. I've just been checking out the recordings I made of the old guy.
Can't wait to compare this amp in the same room with the same guitar, mic, desk, pieces of music etc. Subjectively, I feel there's a wee bit more natural 'sustain' (compression) at lower volumes which gives the amp a lovely, lovely clean sound with every guitar I've tried. I haven't had the chance to show it to any other musos yet. Their reactions will be interesting.

I've just realised my attachment is too big (ooh, er, missus!) I'll try and photoshop it down and post it tomorrow. Off down the pub now.
Toodle pip, C

[Graydon]

... There seems to be a bit more gain on the normal channel than on the trem/bright channel.

...I may well try a G12M RI just to hear the effect of a less bright speaker. I can get one for £50 in Glasgow (Appian loudspeakers).

... but the tone controls don't kill the sound the way they do in the original.

Colin,

In all the amps I've built, the normal channel has a slight bit more gain than the trem channel if you use the high inputs. The low inputs are pretty close. BTW, you should note that the inputs on the red amp are done per the schematic that we have been working to. That is, the high input is a high gain input while the low input is a low gain input. On th eoriginal, (on th enormal channel at least) the two inputs should sound the same as they each go into one triode. With the high input on th ered amp, the guitar goes into both triodes simultaneously. So, in truth, only the low input is authentic to the sound of the original 18Watter.

I highly recommend a Greenback. it sounds great with this amp.

Interesting about the tone controls not killing the sound. I am not sure why thaht would be, other than that different types of caps do sound different. Maybe what we used is better. I noticed that Richie used a Silver Mica on the normal channel. Those seem to sound a little smoother to me.

[Plexi]

Colin i'll try to explain a few things.. When i put this amp together..i looked at your amp pics quite a bit. i wanted to keep it as close to your amp as possible. I did change one resistor value in the trem circut. i've used this in a few amps now, and i think it makes a little better working trem. Useing the 2.7 meg resistor these amps will have a little speaker thump when the trem is on. And changing the value keeps it alot quiet-er with no thumping sound.. And still have a great range when turning the intensity pot. great trem in my opinion.

As for the gain..heres where i'll try to explain. there can be a few things that can make them a wee bit different more or less..

We have been discussing the Carbon Comp resistors.. as they age in amps,the value of the resistors can change..most of the time they go up in value..but not always. Sometimes they go down. The plate and cathode resistors kinda set the gain of the tube circut....So if your amps resistors had changed over the years it could make it just a little different. Still it will be very close..

Then tubes themselves can react different and sound different. Think of it as kinda like changing strings on your guitar.. I usually go through tubes in the preamp and listen to them..they can all have a different tone to them. The output tubes can also sound different..
I try to pick what i think sounds best..and no microphonics.. Some may sound brighter or glassy..some dull..some hiss more, and on and on in differences. Usually you know when you find a good one..
So the tubes in your old amp could be another reason of some little differences. All in all, it should sound close,and have the same feel, only the speaker could be the one thing that is different in the tone..

Still ..all in all that thing cranked kicks butt!!
Not too many use the clean sound..but it is there at lower volumes.
And from your HC post of your old amp..the touch responce,and how each string is heard..not a mushhy cranked tone,but more equal in all the strings.
And alot of people that may not have used pedals with this amp,its very pedal friendly.. least it is with my old junky pedals..lol

I think this is cool.. your THE expert on comparing your old amp to this one.
And i would say your amp pics and help in the beginning has alot to do with where we are today. And if we got it right..so to speak..lol This is what its all about,if what we are building does compare to the real deal.


Have fun recording..

Richie

[servant]

Hey guys,

For those of us who have not been around as long, what is the background on this member-built amp for Colin? Was this a thank you gift from the "club" for all of his input on the specs from the real McCoy? Or did Colin commission the construction of the amp? I joined while things were still on Yahoo but don't recall reading how this all started. Sounds like he got a beaut.

Dean

[Plexi]

Kinda like jumping in and watching a movie from the last half of it..

I'll try to fill in some of the details...

When we first started the group, you couldn't find any info on the amp.
The schematic in the Doyle book was wrong.. Colin had a write up on Harmony central about his real amp..So Graydon contacted him..
He sent pics of his amp..answered our questions..and sent us sound files of his amp. Which he had his amp since around 1967 or 68..

This is where it went from not having any info, to exploding into high gear.
All of the few first members we had, worked on making sure things were right,and changeing things till it was correct. Another member found another old 18 and measured it, and it helped compare to what work was going on for cab dimensions and placement.. Its been a couple years ..so its a little fuzzy..lol

But last year, Colin had to part with his amp due to some things in life that happened.. plus along with those things,he had lost a friend.. Seems when things like this happen..life likes to kick ya when your down..{but hes got up and dusted himself off since then}

So the group thought it would be great to build him an amp to replace his old amp.
Our members kicked in for parts,cabnet material and everything to build his amp. It was just a great thing to do, a lot of our members pitched in with whatever they could.. And now its in Colins hands... a fantastic player too.

Its also great to hear his reviews of the amp we built for him,compared to his old amp. I believe every amp you see that has been built {born} on here, started with Colins help..
i like his replies.. hes got a wit to him.. he took the pics,but had no idea of what things were in his amp..he called them "wiggly beezers"
And one of the sound files is "gods of the wiggly beezers"
And pics like "bride stripped bare" HA.. an inside shot of the chassis..
It put some fun into the simple things..

This is a short take on how it came about..hopefully others will post there replies and thoughts.. they usually put it in better words than i do.
Richie

[ColinM]

Richie + everyone
Thanks for these kind words. It's wierd thinking back to how I got in tow with you guys. I was surfing rather aimlessly, and by chance, almost, I entered 'Marshall 18 watt' in a search engine. Up came the Yahoo group; I lurked at first, then joined. Imagine my surprise when my announcement that I owned one caused a reaction similar to walking into a frat. party and shouting 'anyone want to meet Britney - she's outside in a swimsuit'
I was expecting to encounter other 18 watt owners, but instead met you guys! Pretty quickly I had to learn to tell my 'capcans' from my 'rectifiers'.
It was fun doing these pics and measurements. I just wish I could have been a bit more helpful on the EE side. Poor old Ron Ott was getting a wee bit frustrated at times, I think
Once upon a time, a few years ago, I stuck a multimeter across a blown speaker for a friend and was able to tell him that the replacement he needed was 15 ohms. By my standards, that was a major piece of electronic wizardry

Anyway; back to the business at hand (before I use up my monthly emoticon allocation).
Todays recordings went well. I've just finished editing the pieces and burning
the CDs. The amp got a fair old hammering today. Boy! is it a beaut....

I spent a wee while tonight comparing the Marshall vs Clone soundfiles.
I wrote down impressions as I went along.

The most remarkable thing overall, is the amazing similarity of these amps. Perhaps I shouldn't be so amazed, maybe, but I've heard, for instance, two silverface Twins side-by-side which differed more than these amps.

The differences between Marshall and Clone are subtle, especially when the 'normal' channels are compared. The Clone demonstrates slightly more gain full up, but the difference is far less than that produced by plugging in my other Tele (with Seymour Duncan p/u's). The trem channel is noticeably brighter in the Marshall. I always felt it was a wee bit too bright, so the Clone does it for me here. The difference between the two channels is more pronounced in the Marshall than in the Clone.

In general, the voicing in the Marshall is slightly 'harder'. This was more noticeable in the room at the time than it is on the recordings. For me, this gives the Clone a rather more 'endearing' sound than the Marshall. However, the pick attack, touch and the sound-goes-clean-when-you-roll-back-the-guitar-volume-thing are very, very similar indeed.

The Clone breaks up at lower volume settings (compare the tremolo demonstrations when the soundfiles arrive: they were both done at volume setting 4). The Clone's speaker is generally brighter, but not in a harsh way; there's a bit more 'air', if you like. I like this too. I'm still going to give the greenback a try, however.
The comparative volumes of these amps, subjectively, (and from memory, obviously,) is pretty much the same. I can't wait to get this one out on a gig. (Sadly much of my work is of an exclusively acoustic nature at the moment, so it could be a while...)

I'll get these CDs posted off to Graydon ASAP, and he can decide how best to present the evidence!

Thank you all once again
Regards, Colin

ps still struggling with the photos - why is Photoshop so damned difficult??

[ColinM]

This is cheesy, I know, but you should have seen the one with the dog (aww.... )

[BirdZeye]

Colin,
Hey, my thanks to you! It was your sound clips that convinced me to do the 18W build!

Good to hear that the new amp is so similar in tone to your original.
I have only been a part of this group for about 6 weeks so I missed out on the Yahoo group, but I certainly share the appreciation of the other members for your donations to the support of 18 watt!

Can't wait to hear the new sound clips. More Tele and Wiggly Beezer flavors I hope

Tom

[Gabi]

Colin!

What a great description!!! We'll have to post the comparison sound bits on the site.
You HAVE to try out the Greenback --- that's all I know ...

What does "Toodle pip" mean? I can almost hear Samwise Gamgee talking


Nice pics BTW. The way I resize pics in photoshop 5.5 is this way:

1. Bring up the picture
2. Go to Image>Image size
3. Make sure you select "Percent" as opposed to "Pixels" in the first two combo boxes, and make sure they are linked together with that chain sign
4. Enter the desired procentage in the first Width field. If the "Constraint Proportion" check box is checked, the Height will be adjusted automatically.
5. Click OK.
6. Double click on the zoom icon to bring the resized picture to 100% zoom.
7. Go to File>Save for Web...
8. Choose jpeg format from the drop down box, save your file.
9. Drink a pint of ale.

That should do it...

There is no limit on emoticons. Use them aboundantly.

Gabi.

[markh]

"CM at home....jpg"

Hey! That doesn't look like any Telecaster I've ever seen!

Can't wait to hear the soundfiles!

--mark

[ColinM]

Mark
Here are another two pics. The first shows me again with the guitar which, as you correctly surmised is not a telecaster! It is, in fact a Washburn J9, and a damned nice instrument, if I may be so bold. The second picture shows the telecaster I used in the soundfiles, which as we speak, are winging their way across the pond. (They may have arrived at Graydon's by now; stand by for further news )
Best wishes, Colin

[ColinM]

Guys
It seems I could only get the portal to upload one attachment at a time. Here's the 'first' pic as described in the previous post!

By the way, Gabi; 'toodle pip' was the kind of utterance one would have heard from the legendary Bertie Wooster - the most famous creation of English early-20th century humourist PG Wodehouse. Nowadays, Bertie would have to say 'later, Dude', I guess. I have heard the phrase used,
by Steely Dansman Walter Becker, but they always had one foot firmly in Perfidious Albion anyway. Is this making things any clearer? Thought so

Regards, C