Sales, Copyrights, and whatnot

[mervgriffen]

Ok.....I'm getting ahead of myself here. I haven't even received the first round of parts for my 18 watter and I'm already thinking about selling it. I was thinking that I could build a head and sell it for minimal profit. (If I did a really good job and was confident in my work). I don't plan on it being a big business. Probably 400 dollars in parts for a head and sell it for 700 or so(thats like charging minimum wage for labor). I would mainly use it to fund my hobby of building. I would turn out a new amp every 3-6 months. I can barely even afford to build this amp all at once, so i need some extra income if I want to continue this as a hobby. Can I do this without getting involved in copyright infringement stuff and offending the guys that build the amps for a living? Is there a demand for just pre-wired boards, etc.?

Thanks

[Nederamp]

See no reason to be concerned. Most patents have ended a long time ago. And most schematics are just copies of the original RCA. You cannot of course sell it as a Marshall, as it isn't. So make up your own name (label) and basically just sell it as a "boutique" amp. You might refer to the original Marshall but that's about it.
Nico

[Aaron]

i was also wondering about this. you know, just as a way to fund the hobby.

i talked to a guy at a local music store, and he was conerned about safety issues. i hadn't even thought of this before...has anyone who sells their amps on a regular basis (Graydon, etc) - have you guys ever had anyone mentione safety to you? is it a problem?

-Aaron

[mervgriffen]

Hmm.....safety issues........I've got an idea. Buy the amp and get a free fire extiguisher. I see there's another "Aaron" in here besides me. No, my names not actually Merv.

The difference between an amp I build and a professionally built one like Graydon makes would mostly be in quality of construction I would imagine. The components would be nearly the same, but I'm not going with the "true to original" cosmetics (hand built cabinet and chassis). I just want to build a well contructed work-horse for gigging musicians in my area. Kind of a "sleeper" so to speak. Until I really know what I'm doing, I can't really offer a warranty (unless I just pay to take it to an amp tech for the customer).

Of course, I'm probably going to electrocute myself before I'm done with my first amp anyway.

-Aaron W.

[EBE]

This is pretty much what I do. I have sold several amps so far (18 watt and 5e3 clones) and have sold 18 watt and other boards. The problem is, there are a bunch of guys already doing this and there are guys ahead of us who have a great reputation in building amps. Although I think my amps are first rate, if I were buying an amp on reputation I go with Richie, Graydon, etc. first. The amp buyer must decide the cost differential between reputation/cost.

When I gig I have my amp logo on my amps but in the places we play most of the patrons are more concerned with whether we play mustang sally or not rather than the type of amp I have. I do hope to get a couple of my amps evaluated by some local musicians with greater name recognition in my region.

Norm

[Aaron]

having built a couple amps now and knowing what's involved, i think i could offer any customers a really good guarantee. i mean, the first 18W I built was/is kind of crappy - the soldering isn't first rate, some things are not as tight as they should be, and the wiring is messy. But i've gigged with it and it's been tossed around and it still works top notch - and it's still in the metal chassis alone - not even a head cab! so i'm not terribly worried about guaranteeing my work. i know the stuff will stand up really fine.

the thing is, i would be selling my amps at far below "boutique" prices. like what the other Aaron said - not true-to-original in terms of cabinet and chassis, just a great sounding quality amp. all you need to do to tell quality of workmanship in the amp is look at the guts. neet and nice, not big globs of soler, nice joints, tight nuts and bolts, and it's solid. the circuitry speaks for itself once you plug in

-Aaron

[Graydon]

I would highly recommend you guys at least get a limited liability corporation registered so that when someone electrocutes himself, you can at least keep your house. The voltages inside a tube amp are high (330+) and they are DC which is more dangerous than AC. There are also some very large capacitors in there so the danger does not go away when you unplug the amp. Even after discharging the caps, they can sneak back up to a voltage where they can give you a nasty bite.

So, just be very careful, and make sure your customers stay out of the guts of the amp.

[Robal]

A couple of other considerations. If you are doing this as a "business," depending on where you live, you may need to get a business license to operate legally. If you are thinking about selling your amps retailed through a music store, again depending on where you live, it may be necessary to have a safety certification for the product, such as UL or the equivalent. That can be an expensive and time consuming process. For example, I understand that you are not supposed to sell amps to the public in Los Angeles unless the product has LA County safety approval; they do inspections at music stores looking for product that does not have the correct safety approval stickers, and pull it off the shelves if it's missing. Then there's the whole liability insurance issue, mentioned above. I observed this scenario with a friend who started an amp company in his garage that grew to be very successful. One of the reasons he got out of the business years later was he was tired of the hassles of the certifications. He now make battery powered and low voltage products, and avoids the headaches. The whole time he had the company, they never got sued for a personal injury by a customer. Just lucky, probably.

[Aaron]

how bout just one of those warning stickers with a lightning bolt on it?

getting any kind of registration/certification is already way too much work and hassle for me considering that at most i'd be doing one amp every 2 months or so. at *most*. oh well. better safe than sorry.

-Aaron

[zaphod_phil]

how bout just one of those warning stickers with a lightning bolt on it?

Well, if you first follow the electrical regulations in terms of grounding and insulation, you should be OK, with the yellow warning stickers. Only use new parts in any amps you sell, especially when it comes to the transformers - they will already have their UL and various other certifications. To be sure you could even by yourself a hand-held insulation tester, and test any amps before sending out. The actual laws vary between states, provinces and countries - and then there's LA. In a lot of cases, the certification requirements aren't mandated for *very* small operations, who are building in sub-commercial quantities. I'm sure many of the private builders who sell some amps don't have any formal certifications, as every amp they build is slightly different anyway. You will need to do a little research to find out what the position is where you are.

[Aaron]

i'll ask around, anyhow. i would be a *very* small operation. hardly an operation at all.

[dboul]

I would humbly submit that you sell a few amps to people you know first and then a business opportunity arises, get concerned about legality. But ALWAYS be concerned with safety.

As someone mentioned earlier, there are dozens known amp builders selling 18watt clones. These are known entities with repuations, warranties, connections, money, manufacturing facilities, websites, free time to market their products, etc. All of these things are crucial to being a successful amp builder. Go to a NAMM show see if you can find all the 18watt clones available, there's quite a few. These guys are your biggest hurdle to turning this into a living. And you can bet that if the 18 watt catches on more, the bigger Boutiques will get in on the action.

I mean Matchless was only selling 10 amps a week in the mid 90's. It's not a big business . . . but seriously fun!!!

What's my point? In my very very humble opinion . . . relax . . . enjoy yourself and if it turns into something profitable, be grateful and happy and call an attorney, if not . . . don't sweat it . . . it's a HELL of a lot of fun!!!

All the best!!!

[zaphod_phil]

I don't think anyone's talking about making a living out of it here - just subsidising a hobby. Apart from that, your points are well made.

[loverocker]

It's very tempting. The weird thing is that in local guitar shops, shooting the breeze, etc - whenever I mention about my amps - building and modding - I always get asked if I do valve amp repairs. They're awlways desperate and are turning work away.

Seems lots of the older guys (who all grew up with valves) who they have subbed repair work out to are gradually retiring. The shops can't afford the expertise in house.

When I get fed up in the day job (about every other day at the moment) I wonder about starting a repair business with an amp-building sideline... <wistful stare into middle distance>

Still got that pesky electrical safety issue though.

[zaphod_phil]

Still got that pesky electrical safety issue though.

Well, follow all the usual precautions, and test every amp that comes in or goes out with an insulation tester. They're a standard item used to test all office electrical equipment, PCs, kettles, etc.