Mercury Magnetics or Heybouer transformer?

[RustyG]

I believe most people here use the Heybouer (not sure of the spelling). But I was reading over at sdgvintageamplifiers that the builder there uses the Mercury Magnetics transformer. Which do you guys use and why?

Thanks,

[KT77]

neither...I use Sowters
ok, I'm a snob and have built only one 18W

Heyboers are the standard GI issue homebuild 18W trannie.
MM are very good boutique-ish pricey clones (well, re-issues).
S2 has some good trannies at the right price (although I don't own any and can't personally endorse them), but by consensus, are worthy.
You could pull a set of trannies from and old record player that uses PP 6V6 topolgy and build a killer 18watter...

But if your a silver spooner, by all means, get some Merc's

I'm kidding, and tired, and wasting your time.......

I gueass it was something Paul said that soured me.......sumthin 'bout HiWatt trannies that just didn't sit right w/ me...........but I digress

get both.....

[phsyconoodler]

Sounds like an episode of "house'.
Many transformers will do a bang up job of making a killer 18 watt amp.Heyboers are suposed to be copies of the original 18 watt transformer.At least that's what I've heard.They apparently took one apart and copied the structure.I do know that people who build with them endorse them because they sound great.I would think that a mercury magnetics would also sound great.The idea with the Heyboers was to DUPLICATE the original sound.Mercury magnatics will sound slightly different.Different is not necessarily a bad thing.
In other words KT77 is tired of those kind of questions.And he is absolutely right that any transformer that is designed for 2-EL84's or 6V6's in a push-pull configuration will sound good.The best? Who knows?

[Graydon]

I wouldn't call Heyboers "standard GI issue" at all. The GDS/Heyboer trannys are very much high-end, premium transformers. They were developed from multiple samples of original Radiospares trannys with the intent to duplicate the voltages, tone and feel of the original RS trannys yet make them more appropriate for use in the USA where we use 120VAC nominal mains voltage. So, we made a couple minor changes to accomodate that need. We added a 120VAC tap to the PT primary winding, and a 5V tap to the PT secondary in case someone wants to use a 5V rectifier. Then we removed the leads for the ultralinear taps in the OT since they aren't used, and we made the OT secondary winding with three impedance taps. These things retained the tone and feel of the originals yet made them far more useful to builders in the USA. We also used premium steel, paper laminations and wound these on machines that were built 50 years ago much like the machines that made the original Radiospares trannys. There's lots of mojo in the Heyboer plant!

For those of you that really must have the look and feel of the Radiospares trannys, we also have a "Vintage" OT which has a tagboard on top with ultralinear taps and multiple secondaries. It is more expensive because it takes more handwork to build but we do have them in stock. All PTs are now being shipped with lugs instead of wires because they are much easier and neater to wire into your amp and they were only a few dollars more expensive to build not requiring nearly as much handwork as the OT.

HTH

[jersey_aaron]

Heyboer also makes the S2 18 watt transformer. They are a little 'brighter' than the GDS Heyboers and I use them in our kits. They seem to cut better...

However, my all-Time favorite 18 watt transformer is a GDS Heyboer that I ordered in 2003. I've never heard another GDS like it, it has extra-brightness that brings out all of the high-end details.

Perhaps something has changed in the manufacturing process in the past few years?

[KT77]

hey Graydon
I didn't mean to imply that the Heyboer's were less than high quality (i was tired...converting one 18watt into a superlead topology, and repairing another... ).

Now that I'm awake

I meant to say that the GDS Heyboer is what is typically used (no question on the quality) and that using Merc's was a 'pricier' option, but not necessarily a huge improvement, just different. And what JA said about S2s goods.

The 18's we built used GDS Heyboers

I'm using Sowters, because I can get them at hifi bandwidths at rated power output, open H frames (a la Partridge), and have all the secondaries available to wire out so that no matter what output imp I select, I'm using the whole trannie (like I said, I'm a snob). And at the price of a MM OTS trannie (incl shipping from England).

But Graydon, this 'Vintage' OT.....w/ the multiple secondaries and tagboard......do you have a datasheet on these? Is it possible to get them in open H frames....in HiFi bandwidth? oo oo oa ah ah ah ahhhhhhhhhh
I'm wringing my hands

[s2]

Heyboer also makes the S2 18 watt transformer. They are a little 'brighter' than the GDS Heyboers and I use them in our kits. They seem to cut better...

Actually, s2 trannies are not made by Heyboer. They are done by a local magnetics company here in Dallas.

Their history is much like that of the GDS. They were cloned from 2 samples of RS trannies. We also tore down trannies from Heyboer, MM, Shinrock, and EMC to figure out what makes each one sound the way it does. We combined the best features of each tranny into one and tweaked it for a slightly more modern sound by emphasizing the upper mids a little bit and cutting a little at about 250Hz. Essentially, I had a sound in my head and we tweaked until we nailed it.

s2 trannies are also wound by hand on ancient equipment. We use high grade lamination steel in a proprietary heterogenous stack, a paper core and former, vintage style copper wire (same O2 content, but heavier gauge for lower resistance), precision interleaving, etc.

That is not to say they are better than GDS (or anyone else) at all--just different. I have often stated that the GDS product is excellent (and a great value) and I use a set in one of my personal amps.

I think we are splitting hairs here gentlemen! There are several good options out there for trannies, and I think it's a good thing. It is probably best to pick based on your personal taste for tone rather than by brand. Availability is also a factor. GDS seems to have them always available. Mine are constantly backordered for 2 to 3 weeks.

[KT77]

Rusty...I'm sure there are clips of amps w/ various OTs in the Zounds section, and a few guys can post some....they're all good trannies.

But I'm surprised (enlightened) at S2's discoveries

[jaysg]

But I'm surprised (enlightened) at S2's discoveries

I should let Dan speak for himself, but he hasn't dropped in recently. (Hope that's a good thing.) 65Amps iron is made by MM, but is not the stock item they list and of course, they won't sell you 65Amps iron. Like s2, Dan & Peter went through a few iterations before settling on their idea of how an 18W should sound in the 21st century.

[KT77]

R..you can go to http://www.65amps.com/sounds.htm to hear what jaysg is referring to

but there are even 'Matchless' options at West Labs if you don't need 16ohm output imp......again, good quality, just a different sound

[rjgtr]

I have used the GDS/Heyboer, Mojo/Heyboer and S2 transformers in my builds. My opinion is that they are all great transformers. I also have some MM transformers in non 18 watt amps and they sound great.

I agree - you can't go wrong with any of them. All are high quality.

My advice - For a dead on clone just get the GDS set. It sounds right and will fit a standard 18 watt chassis. Classic 60s 18 watt 1974 tone. If you are a more Rock oriented and want a really punchy versions of the amp, then the S2 tweaks are for you. They seem to work really well with a higher gain preamp too.

If you want to get a MM set, then you probably won't be disappointed either. It is all a choice of character not quality.

[twangbanger]

I've built 3- 18 watters and one 36 watter with heyboer (GDS) iron and all turned out great ,But also have replaced a fender pro output trannie w/ a mercury magnetics and WOW what a difference!I think with any of those or s2's trannies you'll have good results
Rob

[dboul]

But I'm surprised (enlightened) at S2's discoveries

I should let Dan speak for himself, but he hasn't dropped in recently. (Hope that's a good thing.) 65Amps iron is made by MM, but is not the stock item they list and of course, they won't sell you 65Amps iron. Like s2, Dan & Peter went through a few iterations before settling on their idea of how an 18W should sound in the 21st century.

Hey guys, this is sort of like arguing food, tastebuds are unique and there is no wrong answer. Try them all and see what your ears tell you work the best. OT's are not that expensive and easy to resell if you're not happy.

Peter and I ordered OT's from every maker we could find when we started our search and ended up going with Mercury, not because Heyboer's were bad, just that the guys at Mercury worked with us to improve the Radiospares design and polish it to the point where some of the negative qualities we were hearing were eliminated. The guys at Mercury make the transformers for extreme high-end hi-fi gear and the physics of guitar trannies are pretty simple for them. So when I asked for a bit of "this" or a bit less of "that", they could comply within days.

Regarding Radiospares, that's another whole can of worms. We found several original Radiospares Deluxe EL84 OT's (which is the original Marshall one) and Mercury had a couple they had rewound and we found out that all of them are different. We actually found an NOS OT that was the same design as one our our used ones and found out on Mecury's computers that they had aged extremely differently as you could imagine. They did NOT sound the same at all. This illustrated just how much of a wild guess it can be to recreate a 40 year old sound. I'm sure if we found other ones that had aged differently, we would have seen different results. So how do you know if you're getting a correct reproduction? You're not. From anyone. Period.

As I mentioned, there is no single "Radiospares" design. Some were very simple with machine wound patterns inside and others were very complex such that they must be wound by hand. Some had heavily laminated stacks, others did not. It seems that RS changed that OT almost every year.

With that being said, the 18watt tranny that Mercury offers is correct in a couple of ways that I think are unique to Mercury. Most importantly, the steel is time-correct for the 60's. They use hand-annealed steel that is cooked by hand in the 60's and so does Mercury (this is the main reason they cost so much), not modern silicon-steel which definitely affects tone and reaction. For the $20k hi-fi amps they supply the trannies for, there is no substitute. Second, 18watt RS OT is based on one of the complex RS trannies that they felt sounded the best. It had 9 interleaves which definitely increases tonal range and reduces the "buzz" factor. 9 interleaves dictates that is must be hand wound, another reason they cost so much.

Again, it still boils down to personal taste and your tast is as good as anyone else! I'm neurotic and picky as heck. I'm not easily satisfied and neither is Peter. We test and test and test and test and test and test. Mecury was able to make us a unique tranny set that met out needs and after really diving in deep to the world of transformers, your ears start to hear things that you never noticed before. Also the guys at Mercury we nice enough (well . . we paid for it) to show us how to manipulate and massage the transformer to make it do what we wanted. For that, I'm very loyal to Mercury. However, there are many great transformer makers out there.

All personal opinion, take with a large grain . . . .

Cheers guys!

Dan

ps - we're on the "Lighting of the Tree at Rockefeller Center" tonight at 8:00pm with Sheryl. There will be 2 of our amp there. Have if look if it's convenient.

[KT77]

hey Dan...

Hey guys, this is sort of like arguing food, tastebuds are unique and there is no wrong answer. Try them all and see what your ears tell you work the best. OT's are not that expensive and easy to resell if you're not happy.

.

...which is what we're kinda saying....but for Rusty's inquiry, I think we've run the gammut of options....
I think w/ the sound samples, one could get a ballpark idea of what one might want to use to personally voice his build, even thru the mfg anomolies....

but what if I wanted to build a London?! whatever am I to do?!

[dboul]

I should let Dan speak for himself, but he hasn't dropped in recently. (Hope that's a good thing.)

Hi Jaysg! Yep that IS a good thing. Thanks for the concern. We're buried and having a lot of fun! I lurk a lot here now and don't post as much, it's just too time comsuming and seriously addictive fun.

Plus, since I'm selling amps now, I don't want to abuse the forum of builders. Builders don't want to buy amps, they want to BUILD right?

I try to "sell" elsewhere. I just drop a not once in a while to let you guys know we're on tv or something fun.

Cheers!!

[dboul]

hey Dan...

Hey guys, this is sort of like arguing food, tastebuds are unique and there is no wrong answer. Try them all and see what your ears tell you work the best. OT's are not that expensive and easy to resell if you're not happy.

.

...which is what we're kinda saying....but for Rusty's inquiry, I think we've run the gammut of options....
I think w/ the sound samples, one could get a ballpark idea of what one might want to use to personally voice his build, even thru the mfg anomolies....

but what if I wanted to build a London?! whatever am I to do?!

Send me a check and I'll send you kit already assembled! Then you can take it apart and put it back together again?

Yeah I hear you on the thread, I was just trying to give a different angle to share how I arrived at my thought process. Sound clips are okay, but you're subject to the quality of your computer's sound card, etc. even sound clips are sort of misleading.

Our soundclips don't really give an accurate representation of our amps but you can get the idea. I've listened to our clips on several different machines and they sound different. Even on Real Player vs. Quick Time vs. Window's Media vs Itunes . . . they all sound different. I'm sure the same is true for others as well. I always suggest just trying a few. Since they don't really cost that much, get a few, swap them out in one night and see what your ears like. I actaully built a box with 4 trannies on it and big switch and that helped quite a bit.

Cheers!!

Dan

[RustyG]

I'm a complete newb here, and I'm AMAZED at the detail in the answers I've gotten out of my questions from some of the best professionals in the business. I'm humbled by the experience. Thank you all for your responses. I can see that I've got a lot to learn about 18 watt amps.