planning 36 watt build

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planning 36 watt build

Post by Bieworm »

Hey

I'm planning on a 36 watt build. I'd like to take the tremolo TMB to a higher level ;-)

Th power tx is no problem to get my hands on. But the OT is somehow problematic. When looking at the Hammond OT range I find the 1760J. It's 4k primary, 4-8-16 Ohms output and 35 watt rated. Should I go for that one or are there other types I should look into? I'd like to stay in the Hammond range for its availability over here...

I read that when the primary impedance is lower there is going to be a nicer distortion. Can anyone confirm this and give me some advice? There also is the 1750N, used in the JCM800 / JMP, which has a 3.2k prim imp and 50W rating...

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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by colossal »

Are you planning to use a pair of EL34s or a quad of EL84s? What plate voltage are you targeting?
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Re: planning 36 watt build

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Still deciding... the 4xEL84 gives me an easy half power option... craig's inspired me on that one
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by colossal »

The choice of output transformer should be made based on the desired operating point for the given tube.
Bieworm wrote: I read that when the primary impedance is lower there is going to be a nicer distortion. Can anyone confirm this and give me some advice? There also is the 1750N, used in the JCM800 / JMP, which has a 3.2k prim imp and 50W rating...
Where did you hear/read this? The answer is not so straightforward because, again, it depends on the operating point. Generally though, increasing the primary impedance will rotate the load line counterclockwise, dropping the 0V gridline intercept below the knee, causing an increase in distortion at the cost of output power. This comes with another price and that is increased screen current, so one must be cautious. The Trainwreck amps (Express and Liverpool) are good examples of this operating choice. The Express ran at 6k6 primary (double the Marshall) but also reduced the plate voltage and utilized the large 1k 25W screen supply resistor to develop a significant voltage drop and screen compression for large voltage swings. Also, individual 1k screen resistors were used to further protect the rubes. The Liverpool also used 6k6 for a quad of EL84s. Both amps are all about output tube distortion and the preamp stays virtually clean.

Another word of caution about classic Plexis and output transformer choice. Some of them ran very high plate voltages (500V or more) but with the 1k7 primary for a quad of EL34s. With the 82k plate load on the inverting side of the PI, the tubes would often redplate.

EL84s don't take much to drive them to clipping so a 4k primary is a good choice at 320-340VDC to give decent headroom. Trainwrecks distort very early but are intended to be controlled dynamically using the guitar volume knob. The magic is that with the screen compression, the clean volume is almost the same as the distorted volume, giving the player the seamless transition from "clean to mean".
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by crgfrench »

If you decide on a 4K, the GDS 36W OT sounds FANTASTIC.
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by colossal »

crgfrench wrote:
Tue 08/25/20 12:36 pm
If you decide on a 4K, the GDS 36W OT sounds FANTASTIC.
This would be my recommendation, if Bieworm decides against going with a Hammond OT.
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Re: planning 36 watt build

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Would be a no brainer...but the shipping to Belgium would cost me an arm and a leg...
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Re: planning 36 watt build

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Bieworm wrote:
Tue 08/25/20 12:56 pm
Would be a no brainer...but the shipping to Belgium would cost me an arm and a leg...
Tube Town from Germany has a 36 Watt 4K primary transformer! I use their 18 Watt transformers and really like them, so I assume the 36 Watt model is good too.
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by Bieworm »

Riffmonster wrote:
Tue 08/25/20 3:28 pm
Bieworm wrote:
Tue 08/25/20 12:56 pm
Would be a no brainer...but the shipping to Belgium would cost me an arm and a leg...
Tube Town from Germany has a 36 Watt 4K primary transformer! I use their 18 Watt transformers and really like them, so I assume the 36 Watt model is good too.
Both my 18w amps have a tube town power transformer. I dont
'T know how the OT s are.. but the ptx are very good. The ptx don't contribute to sound though.. an OT does..
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by JMPGuitars »

Bieworm wrote:
Tue 08/25/20 3:55 pm
Both my 18w amps have a tube town power transformer. I dont
'T know how the OT s are.. but the ptx are very good. The ptx don't contribute to sound though.. an OT does..
Some would argue that you hear the PT more than most other components.
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by colossal »

JMPGuitars wrote:
Tue 08/25/20 5:59 pm
Some would argue that you hear the PT more than most other components.
While it might sound rather contrived and esoteric, I agree with this. The PT's characteristics and power supply design play a major role in determining how an amp feels and responds. I think it was Merlin Blencowe that said "you are listening to the power supply."
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by JMPGuitars »

colossal wrote:
Wed 08/26/20 9:11 am
JMPGuitars wrote:
Tue 08/25/20 5:59 pm
Some would argue that you hear the PT more than most other components.
While it might sound rather contrived and esoteric, I agree with this. The PT's characteristics and power supply design play a major role in determining how an amp feels and responds. I think it was Merlin Blencowe that said "you are listening to the power supply."
Indeed, you Merlin, and ZP have all said things along those lines...and I believe it. These PTs have plenty of sag on their own, and that obviously plays a role in the sound and feel of the amps.

The moral of the story being, if Bieworm is happy with the PTs, he should try the OTs also.
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by Bieworm »

So when you are satisfied with the sound you'd better not listen to better transformers... 😃
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by JMPGuitars »

Bieworm wrote:
Wed 08/26/20 12:23 pm
So when you are satisfied with the sound you'd better not listen to better transformers... 😃
Good transformers are good transformers. Mercury Magnetics are supposedly good transformers, but I would never even consider purchasing them for more than the cost of a Heyboer set. Whether or not they sound better is completely subjective, and absolutely not worth twice the price.

Maybe those Tube Town OTs will be the best you've ever heard. Who knows.
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by Bieworm »

JMPGuitars wrote:
Wed 08/26/20 2:35 pm
Bieworm wrote:
Wed 08/26/20 12:23 pm
So when you are satisfied with the sound you'd better not listen to better transformers... 😃
Good transformers are good transformers. Mercury Magnetics are supposedly good transformers, but I would never even consider purchasing them for more than the cost of a Heyboer set. Whether or not they sound better is completely subjective, and absolutely not worth twice the price.

Maybe those Tube Town OTs will be the best you've ever heard. Who knows.
Fwiw.. they are muuuuch cleaner finished than the hammonds. The hammonds are painted all over the wires which makes it hard to determine the color of those individual wires. The tube towns are very nicely constructed and the shells are painted hammerfinish. And they are made in Europe. I'm satisfied so far...
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by JMPGuitars »

Bieworm wrote:
Wed 08/26/20 3:20 pm
Fwiw.. they are muuuuch cleaner finished than the hammonds. The hammonds are painted all over the wires which makes it hard to determine the color of those individual wires. The tube towns are very nicely constructed and the shells are painted hammerfinish. And they are made in Europe. I'm satisfied so far...
I'm sure we're all looking forward to hearing their OT. ;)

If you're making a 36W version, and you want EL34s, you could combine the power amp from my 36W Superlite TMB with the preamp section of the Tremolo TMB. (I might make the docs for that version eventually)
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by Bieworm »

Josh

I did some copy paste with both the schematics from the 18W tremolo TMB and the 36W superlite TMB.
Is there something you think is not right?
I also think about adding reverb. I drew the injection points at the effects loop. Is that ok?
I also need to add a 12AX7 and a 6BX6 to the circuit. The 12AX7 needs 160V to the plate and the 6BX6 needs 210V. Is it all right to feed it from node D (B+ line)? Or should I take it from node C and bring the voltage down with a resistor? Heaters will be connected to the heater chain.
I am also not sure about the ground reference point of the cathode RC of the 6BX6. It is the reverb driver tube. I'm confused wether it should be grounded to the power section ground or preamp ground. I want to avoid them nasty ground loops... My gut says preamp though...
36W tremolo TMB schematic (reverb).png
Lamington layout + BOM.xlsx
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by JMPGuitars »

Bieworm wrote:
Fri 08/28/20 5:30 am
I did some copy paste with both the schematics from the 18W tremolo TMB and the 36W superlite TMB.
Is there something you think is not right?
Well, the PT still says 18W. ;)

The resistor between C and D will probably need to be between 4.7K to 8.2K, you'll need to test your voltages, but I'd start at 8.2K (not 27K).

You cut off part of V5.

I'm not going to assume anything about your reverb insertion points, but they might be fine that way.

I don't know how you're building your reverb circuit, but I wouldn't bother with the version in your doc. If you're building it into the same chassis, you should be able to get it to work with the same heater chain/B+ rail as the amp's circuit. That might take some experimenting and thought, but you can probably figure it out. Just follow the rules.
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Step 1: Remove and discard all JJ tubes.
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by Bieworm »

15986374518417873935774271846806.jpg
JMPGuitars wrote:
Fri 08/28/20 7:28 am
Bieworm wrote:
Fri 08/28/20 5:30 am
I did some copy paste with both the schematics from the 18W tremolo TMB and the 36W superlite TMB.
Is there something you think is not right?
Well, the PT still says 18W. ;)

The resistor between C and D will probably need to be between 4.7K to 8.2K, you'll need to test your voltages, but I'd start at 8.2K (not 27K).

You cut off part of V5.

I'm not going to assume anything about your reverb insertion points, but they might be fine that way.

I don't know how you're building your reverb circuit, but I wouldn't bother with the version in your doc. If you're building it into the same chassis, you should be able to get it to work with the same heater chain/B+ rail as the amp's circuit. That might take some experimenting and thought, but you can probably figure it out. Just follow the rules.
You're right. But it was a quick mash up during my lunch break...
The values that I have in the preamp of my tremolo TMB are the ones I will start with. The resistor between C and D is 5k6 in mine. I have another value of RC on V2 too due to me liking that a little more... actually, I have both values, but switchable.
I decided to go for the EL34 poweramp too. That offers me some room for the 2 extra tubes for the verb. Although... I have a Marble Clubreverb which seems to have some kind of 1 tube reverb that I really adore. I might dig into that one a little deeper. Unfortunately there is absolutely no schematic of that amp to be found anywhere. The builder keeps it a secret... the chassis is very crowded so I have to be very careful on determining the circuit. But it's a nice challenge...
15986375001106969281029565610048.jpg
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Re: planning 36 watt build

Post by Bieworm »

This is what I can make of the reverb wiring inside the Marble:
Do you see anything missing or strange?
15986417501523914851198946465295.jpg
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