18Watt.com

I am currently working the bugs out of a 18 watt TMB I recently put together....once I get it all just right and broken in I'd like to step up to some NOS tubes from the EH's I have now which don't sound all that bad. I'd like to know what peoples opinions are about using 3 mid level preamp NOS tubes (like GE or Sylvania) versus going with 1 top notch tube in V1 (mullard, telefunkin) mixed with 2 EH's.

I'm concerned about cost and future avaliability. So I was thinkin if I did go all out and get three top notch tubes that I'd only use one at a time and have a future stash instead of burning em all at once. What do you think? Make sense or dumb idea?

you can get sylvania and ge pretty cheap sometimes on fleabay but, I'd prefer one good mullard in V1 and 2 eh's.

I personally like RCA 12ax7's as a potentially cheaper alternative to Mullards. But I almost always end up with a Mullard in V1. There really is no substitute. I wouldn't spend my money on Telefunkin's in a guitar amp. They tend to be a bit bright to my ears. Raytheon is another great 12ax7 but it seems that the hi fi guys have run the price up on those as well. Sylvania's probobly get the closest the the theoretical 100 mu but thier sound along with the GE's are ho hum in my opinion. I think your on the right track running new manufactur tubes in the later stages. Throw the $$$'s at V1

Mullards can still be found cheap on Fleabay. You may have to buy a couple to get a really good one or two, but the used ones are often still pretty darn good. I've picked up a few winners this way. Maybe it's a little risky, but I've never gotten a fake, worst case just a slightly tired tube that works well enough in other apps. And they aren't so pricey you can't take a stab at it...

Shoot for a couple used Fleabay candidates that can be had for what Groovey Tubes wants for their supposed "re-issue" and be good to go!

I've picked up a bunch of GE labeled mullards for cheap on fleabay. Just gotta look out for them but, I must confess most of the GE labeled ones I bought weren't as good as some of the older early 60's ones I've got. I usually run my telefunkens in the pi.

Do a bit of rewiring and you can find a good Mullard 6EU7 for V1 at a fraction of the price of a 12AX7. Same tube, different pinout. If a Mullard is what you need in V1, this is the way to go.

+1 to NOS tubes making the most difference in V1. That's where the tone lives.

The best thing you can do for the PI is to make sure it's a good tube (NOS or otherwise) that has balanced triodes.

Mullards are great! The Brimars and RFTs are also good. The RFTs don't have a lot of headroom, but distort in a very cool way. NOS Telsas are Ok, but not anywhere near as good as the others.

I tend to use a combination of NOS and new production. It really depends on the amp, but I like a Mullard in V1. In an 18 watt I also like them in V1 and V3 with a Chinese or JJ in V2. For a standard Marshall 50/100 I like a Mullard in V1 and V2 with a JJ or Chinese in V3. A good sub in V2 is the GT 12ax7M (a bit more $$$ but good sounding).

I'll go with the group on putting a Mullard up front, and using whatever's around, JJ etc., in the PI. Also don't rule out used tubes if they can be had cheap, like others said. I have a Mullard 12ax7 I snagged out of my Vox and it sounds great in the TMB channel of my 18 watt! It sputters a bit at times, though, so I'm gonna pick up an NOS...

If you want NOS, the Sarge hooks up the 18watt crew, just ask him.

I notice that nobody have mentioned Valvos, Amperex/Philips Heerlen, Mazdas or Siemens. Is this because these tubes are not very common outside northern Europe? To my experience they all sound about the same as Mullards. Maybe Siemens is a tad more neutral, somewhere between a Mullard and a Tungsram.

Well yeah...we could talk about $200 preamp tubes but dude is looking to try something sweet for low bucks.
It SO depends what you're into. You, of course, HAVE to try a good mullard I61 or I63 (or I62 but they were only made for a couple months, May/June '64..pretty rare). Up until a few months ago I had never tried a real mullard. I had/have a lot of American, Canadian, and Ei AX7s but no sexy European stuff.
Well...did THAT ever change in a hurry. Now I have some of the sexiest and rarest AX7s ever...kinda.
My old favorite was a JAN Philips...well...an ECG Philips. It just recently went microphonic on me . That frickin tube gave-up the harmonics and feedback like no other. It was punchy but pretty dark sounding. Kinda like a mullard with more STUFF.
I then scored a pair of teles. They sounded pretty neutral (may be weak?). Pretty much right in the middle of everything else. Wasnt impressed. The Eis have a lot of CRUNCH and are great. It IS hard to find one that stays working though. I only had like a half dozen and only 2-3 are still any good (non-microphinic).
Then, I FINALLY scored a used real (re-labelled) mullard I63. Tried it in V1 of a few amps and....AHHHHH so THAT's what all the fuss is about.
They're right in the middle too kinda. Not as aggressive as the Ei, not quite as "wet" as the ECG Philips, but very "clear" punchy, warm, middy, sweet, and "honest". Hard to explain. It's kinda subtle but really noticeable...? You just KNOW as soon as you try one, what a real tube is all about.
From there it went bananas. Amperex, more mules, Heerlen.........
I got some used '56 "FOREIGN MADE" Mullard labelled Munich Siemens longplates that I've got over $150ea for. They sound FANTASTIC. More of everything that makes a mullard a mullard (or less of everything that makes, a mullard a mullard?) but I sure cant afford to have them in all my amps. I'm not rich and putting 3 of those in each of my amps would be CRAZY...plus, it would more than double the value of a lot of my amps lol.
But...after all that, if that philips was still good, it would still be MY favorite tube for V1 of my Marshalls and 18Ws...
I bought a used 1987X one time that came with some "perfectubes" in it. Metal retainers on the plates. They sounded like ASS...brittle, bright, squeely feedback instead of musical feedback....
So...good tubes do make all the difference (especially in V1). Once you're in the "good tube" neighborhood, it's all a matter of preference. They're all "good" just subtly different. You can usually find relabelled mullards for ~$15 on ebay. You owe it to yourself to pick a few-up and try them.
my $.02.

Thanks for all the input guys....I found some resonably priced NOS tubes so i can try a few different combinations. I'll update when I get them.

blaren wrote:
You can usually find relabelled mullards for ~$15 on ebay. You owe it to yourself to pick a few-up and try them.
my $.02.

Any examples, and what to look for?

Thanks!

Brimar, Philips, and even some Amperex ECC83s were made in Mullard plants. I prefer those made in Great Britain over those made in Holland, FWIW.

It's so hard to say what to look for. I'm no tube expert but this is what I've found.
It seems that almost half of old 12AX7/ECC83s are actually mullards. I find another one almost everytime I "re-look" through my stash and amps. At first I thought mullards said MULLARD on them. I didnt have any. When I learned that a lot of them were relabelled, I looked through my tubes and found that a couple WERE made in GR. Britain and had a seam on the top...probably mullards..
next I learned about etched datecodes and found one or 2 more in my stashes.

Today I tried an old AX7 from an old green Sylvania box. Well, inside the box was actually a GE long smooth plate. I tried it in my Harmony H415 that's in the livingroom.
I pulled the "ZENITH 7025"..actually an RCA 12AX7 from the H415's V1 and plugged the GE in. It sounded very sweet. Then I grabbed an AMPEREX that is pretty aggressive and snotty. WOAH!!! It's like there's something wrong with the LP GE cause the amperex made the amp twice as loud. Put the original Zenith back in to make sure and it was pretty close to the amperex. Tried an IEC mullard labelled I63 in it (rubbed-off the label ) and it was pretty neutral compared to the Amperex. Close but....
That amp is REALLY REALLY sweet but it lacks some headroom when rolling the guitar's vol back a bit to clean it up. Just looses all it's punch. I knew the Amperex would give it a bit of a shot in the arm. I find old Ei to sound a lot like that. Real aggressive, semi bright (not BAD bright), and in your face.
I'm "probably" just gonna put the zenith back in it cause it's pretty much in between the mullard and amperex.

I think the trick is, get every 12ax7 you can get your hands on. Go to garage sales and flea markets. Look for OLD p.a. amps (bogen....), tape decks, radios,...anything with tubes.

They make a pretty big difference. One amp will love one tube in V1 and another amp might love the same tube, but in V2......there are just SO many combinations. Once you get a lot of tubes and a lot of amps, you can drive yourself NUTS trying different combinations. Where does it stop...you need the right caps, the right iron, resistors, pots, jacks, frets, bridges, pickups, string gauge, pedals, inductors, half dead batteries, monster cable.....pick thickness...blah blah blah.

I still sound like me no matter what the wall voltage is that day but when everything is optimal or near optimal, I play BETTER. Tubes DO make a big difference. They're easy to change, relatively inexpensive, and its FUN to try them and collect them. Frick, it's even fun just to LOOK at them lol.

The difference between a crappy 12AX7 in V1 and a great AX7 in V1 is HUGE..like today with that half dead (?) GE longplate of mine. Or...like those stupid "perfectubes". Compare either of those to a top of the line million dollar NOS ECC83 and it's night and day. Compare a GOOD AX7 (like anything...GE, RCA, Westinghouse, Sylvania...Brimar, Amperex, philips, mullard...) to the BEST AX7, and the difference will be much more subtle.
You can find good ones on ebay...look for relabels where the seller doesnt really even know what it is and thus doesnt put any "trigger" words in the title like mullard or whatever. Look for made in gr britain, holland, germany...oops, I mean E or W Germany, Czekoslovakia......or look for acid etched datecodes.
There are also people here and at other "amp sites" who sell good used and NOS stuff. Tubegetter, Tubetramp, Sgt. overdrive....Heck, in a week or so, I might even be able to do a beauty or two at a decent price. I mean just a "normal" mullard I63 or something.

Yes, NOS tubes do have something special.
I got several EL84 tubes:

- EI EL84 ("kind of NOS")
I use this tube the most because I got quite a few of them and I can still buy them.
The tone is pronounced in highs while it still is smooth (highs and mids) and detailed. In some conditions (rolled back mids) you can get a nice woody tone out of these tubes.
My EL84's are concerning their sound pretty much alike (5 tubes). One EI EL84 "died" after one and a half year of test (ab)use in SE style power amp.

- Telefunken EL84 (NOS)
they are as the EI EL84 fine and reserved sounding with a little more smootheness. If you already got a harmonically rich sound preamp section that is slightly distorting the Telefunken does a great job to support these sweet harmonics! I really like this tube when the preamp or the Telefunken itself is slightly pushed.

- TAD EL84 (new production; thick glass)
this tube is more bassy and middy. For a fat sound it's pretty good, especially for distorted tone.
For sparkling clean tones the tube is a bit too much on the bassy side.

- Ultron EL84 (relabled russian tube; thick glass)
pretty much like the TAD EL84; maybe a bit more brut


Pream tubes I got arround:

I started with 2 tubes of GE5751. And even changing the 1/2 of the tube or the whole tube from position x to position y can improve the sound. All GE5751 I have sound a bit different and only one combination of the GEs gave that sweet sound (unfortunately I couldn't reproduce that particular sound since I made constant changes to my circuit)


- GE5751 ("kind of NOS")
very good in V1. It provides (V1) a lot of dynamic and detail in the base region. You can kind of form the bass with your picking and bending.
( ! Yes V1 is important for good sound ! )

- 12ax7-c (new production, yugoslavia, silver plates)

bright tube that I like for screaming but still smooth overdrive sounds . It has clearly less mids and bass than the GE5751.

- EI 12at7
it's a clear and brigh sounding tube that can add some nice harmonics to the tone. However, it should be combined with a more middy/bassy kind of tube. It provides a lot of clean headroom (more than GE5751).


I haven't used standard 12ax7 preamp tubes yet like JJ, Sovtec, EH ... so I can't compare or refer to their sound.

Hope you guys like it. Criticism, affimation!?

blaren wrote: I think the trick is, get every 12ax7 you can get your hands on. Go to garage sales and flea markets. Look for OLD p.a. amps (bogen....), tape decks, radios,...anything with tubes.

Yes, thats what I did:
Telefunken EL84 + single ended OT + EF89 Telfefunken (don't have use for thisone so far, maybe instead of EF86???) + magic eye ??? ... for about 5 dollar.
Well, that's a treasure and makes fun, too!!!

Here are my favorite V1 types, in order of preference -

Brimar black plate
Sylvania black plate, diamond getter
Tesla block plate
MBLE 5751
Siemens Halske long ladder plate mC
Mullard Kenley long smooth plate 2A
Mullard Kenley long ladder plate 2A
Mullard Blackburn long ladder plate mC
Mazda (France) silver plate I6
Mullard I6
Tungsram (Hungary) I6
Mazda (France) grey plate I6
Brimar I6
Mazda (Ediswan) I6

I got a lot more that are too exotic to fit into a categorisation - but what am I actually using? Sylvania in 1, Japanese Raytheon I6s in 2,3 and I'm happy enough. I have the latest EH and they are too crunchy. there are good chinese which are smoother (Billington Gold sound nice, but don't ask me for how long).
The whole thing is very subjective - Pik-O-Rama - but it has to be said that there is a period of Russian manufacture around the mid 70s when they made excellent EL84s. Not every plant and every batch, but if someone sells you some good ones, go back and buy the rest of the batch! The same applies for the "very similar to 12AX7" pre-amp tubes - but you have to try them first.