Marshall Experts Quick Help Please!! 18 Watt Real??

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Wannatone
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Marshall Experts Quick Help Please!! 18 Watt Real??

Post by Wannatone »

Just got a ´67 2x10 18 Watt Marshall. I´m just not sure if everything is original.
Please let me know if anything is wrong with the amp. I would have to react quickly.

The chassis has been thoroughly cleaned and buffed, but shows remnants of crusty dirt in the corners. It just doesn´t match with the as new looking cab that not even has any dust behind the grill cloth or on the bottom. And it smells like new stuff. :?
Cab_Top
Cab_Bottom
Cab_Corner_1
Cab_Corner_2
Cab_Corner_3
Back_Panels
Back_Panels_Rear
Baffle_Rear
Baffle_Edge
Baffle_Screws
Ser_No (sorry, no better pic)

The stripes of the pinstripe grill look slightly different than the stuff I´ve seen yet.
Pinstripe_Grill
Pinstripe_Rear

The gold Marshall logo looks as new and has a flat surface. I thought the old ones are slightly convex?
Marshall_Logo

The speaker codes appear to have been wiped off, but I could still read them to some extent.
Speakers (Celestion 10"): 03L8 7442 Cones: NIB4HA
Speakers
Speaker_Cones

A couple of components have been replaced.
Chassis
Chassis_Close
Inspection_Tag (sorry, no better pic)

Front_Panel
Front_Panel_Left
Front_Panel_Right

I would appreciate any help to verify the amp. :)
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Wannatone
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Post by Wannatone »

I just realized that the seller appears to have stolen the amp wiring photo that he emailed me from Ian´s ´64 amp. 8O
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Plexi
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Post by Plexi »

Wannatone, I guess i can take a stab at it..lol but i'm no expert.

"""I just realized that the seller appears to have stolen the amp wiring photo that he emailed me from Ian´s ´64 amp. """

Wonder how they will talk there way out of that one???

I haven't had time to look real close at all the pics.. but....
I think you can see quite a few things don't appear as they seem to be..
And you already seem to have a red flag about this amp..

But some things stand out..those back panels are not Jim Marshalls amp tolexing work.. it looks like its been recovered. Look how they trimmed the excess tolex on the back. not straight cut..and excess glue still there.
And the corner cuts on the back panel..look at those cuts,not at the right angle.

The back panel plates kinda off some... and look at the AC rating.. the 18s as far as i know..were all 230V Not 110V

And the cleaning they did on the chasis..chassi looks clean..and it seems they did this because something smoked..look at all the parts and sockets..still show some of the smokey-ness still on them. Just things seem to not look right.. the rubber feet show wear..but the rest is all like new..no tolex scratch or nothing.. So it looks like it was taken apart..recovered... cleand and put back together, even the sockets were put back different than all the other 18 watters we've seen..

Looks like they recovered it,cleaned it up..and used the old parts putting back together.. i think the sockets were removed,when cleaning,and also put back..and in wrong. This is just my opinions or thoughts.. and on just what i've seen so far. Handle also looks very clean.. I'm sure after looking some more,i may see some other things..

Richie
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Post by Plexi »

Oh, one other thing..looked like the side shot of the baffle.. that trim edge looks too thin..it doesn't even go to the center of the thickness of the baffle.

Richie
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Wannatone
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Post by Wannatone »

Plexi,

my ´66 JTM says 110/250 Volts, 160 Watts. The 18 watt says 125 Watts? I have a pic of a ´67 20 watt head that has the same style serial number tag. Unfortunately, I can´t read anything at all.
But, the plastic feet look identical.

They cleaned around the tube sockets. The chassis must have looked pretty dirty. There are still some remnants around the tube sockets and, especially inside the chassis beneath the sockets. Looks like dust, dirt and, perhaps the original owner smoked. No signs of component smoke, though.

But, there isn´t the slightest dust or dirt inside the cab! I´ve looked behind the speakers. NOTHING! The whole baffle board is clean as can. NO DUST!
I dunno how to get the dust off behind the grill cloth of my amps, though 8O
Even the vent grill is clean as new. The black painted surfaces inside the cab are clean as new...
The tolex hasn´t hardened at all.

I´m just curious if the pinstripe stuff is still available. It´s clean as new, and it smells as new 8O

Sounds fishi, doesn´t it?
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Post by Ian »

Hi Wannatone,

Crikey, that’s a looooong question, :lol: LoL! Needs a long answer, sorry! And I see Richies’ already given a length reply. But get this;- I’ve written all the stuff below without reading a word of Richie’s reply (because I’m late for the Bank!), so let’s see do it “blind/independentâ€
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Post by loverocker »

Hey WT, I've seen very few Marshalls of the same era 'in the flesh', but I don't think it's right. Partly for the too-clean reason you mention. And sending you Ian's photo is outrageous! :twisted:

But mostly because the front panel typeface doesn't match Ian's amp (remember that long and geeky thread?). Look at the 'M' shape in 'TREMOLO' for example, plus the figure '1'. 8O

That makes me highly suspicious, and the only explanation would be if Marshall switched typeface between the dates the two amps were made. I'd check other 66/67 era Marshalls to see if there seems to be a change of typeface.

Oh, the inspection label doesn't look right to me either.

Hope you can get your Euros back. Tell us who the shady vendor is...
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Post by Wannatone »

Ian,

thanks for your reply! :D

Just compare the chassis pic they emailed me with your amp:

Ian-18W-Circuit
:o
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loverocker
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Post by loverocker »

On the typeface issue, you can clearly see the different 'M' shape on this pic of a real plexi of the same (alleged) era:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... otohosting
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Post by Ian »

Hi guys,

Well spotted loverocker! Yep, that M is definitely a different typeface to mine.

As loverocker says;- we went into quite a bit of detail about the shape of that M on another thread quite recently;- Marshall used an unusual typeface in which the central V-shaped bit of the M is very shallow. But on your amp the M is the common type with the central bit quite deep & pointy.

Wannatone;- have you allready paid the guy for this amp?

OK, well I shouldn't advise anyone, because I've just bought a guitar on eBay from a guy in Japan, only when I tried to pay him with PayPal the payment was blocked & I got a fraud warning about him, yikes :!: But I've still sent him $500 by Wire Transfer, now how daft is that 8O :?: Do you think I'll ever see that guitar? And if I do, will it really turn out to be a "near mint & all original 57 re-issue Jap Strat made 1984-87" :?:

Ian.

ps: this just shows that apperently trivial chit-chat about such things as the typeface, can come in handy when you're trying to detect a fake.
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Post by ab3640au »

:D Loverocker ... you're right ... the "other thread" did get rather geeky, but what came out of it has proven worthwhile. Even the tricksters can muck up on something as unimportant as a font. Wannatone ... hope you haven't paid any cash yet. This one seems greatly "modified" at best ....

Barry Marie
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Wannatone
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Post by Wannatone »

I´m not sure about the font. I had a 1st series ´67 20 watt head for a couple of days. On my crappy pics the "M" appears to have the slanting legs and the "v" goes just right down to the bottom.
Look
Well, the 20 watt may have been a repro but, I don´t see much eveidence that anybody would make repro panels for the short-lived 1st 20 watt amp.

And, WTF would they have made a panel with ground switch for my amp when there are standard panels w/ standby switch easily available??

That´s why I guess that the front panel might be original, but I can´t verify this opinion.

Ian,
Yes, I have already payed by credit card.
Sounds like yo´ll be lucky to receive anything from the guy in Japan. 8O

The speakers are not original IMO. The terminal tabs should face each other. These speakers have lived in a cab where both looked in the same direction. That´s what I can tell from the dust on the cones. Now they are mounted with the tabs upwards.
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Post by loverocker »

Hmmm... too fuzzy to really make it out. If typeface did vary at the time (would require both multiple suppliers and a lack of QC at Marshall on delivery), it would be possible, of course. :?

It would still strike me as unlikely, because it also needs a coincidence of such a SNAFU during the run of just 69 amps between this one and Ian's amp.

Having looked around the Music Ground shop (over-priced but interesting), having noticed that they no longer advertise their vintage amps to UKers (higher price overseas and less chance of come-back) and having looked at how they use Ebay (under- and mis-descriptions, blatant lies, buying up lots of old components but never saying in their amplfier adverts what they have replaced), I'd honestly say that - if your suspicions prove correct - they need attention from Leeds Trading Standards (like I said on the LPF - I'm happy to help out, and make the phone calls to find out how to set things rolling).
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Post by Ian »

Hi Wannatone,

Oh yes, in general you’re probably quite right about the typeface on the Plexi. I didn’t go into all the “ifs & butsâ€
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Post by Ian »

Wannatone,

I forgot to say this (which Richie already pointed out ages ago in a completely different context);-

page 175 of Doyle shows a colour photo of an original 1966 Marshall Catalogue advertising the 18W Combo, with the printed details saying "ON/OFF switch and STANDBY switch". But alongside the advert is a photo of the Plexi Panel which clearly shows that the Plexi has a GROUND switch instead of the STANDBY, ie it's just like your amp!


Ian.
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Post by ColinM »

WT
Like Ian, I bought my 18 watter in the mid-'70's, and lived with it for 27 years until selling it on recently. I bought mine when they had virtually no resale value, and certainly weren't worth faking :lol:

Sorry, mate, from an 'authenticity', 'vintage', etc point of view, the plexi panel looks all wrong (and far too new) for my liking; and the 'ground' thing is a complete giveaway! :cry: The electrics may well be technically correct, but I reckon that a lot of the components have been replaced at some point. (This, of course, may be no bad thing :P ).

It may well be a chimera built from two or more sources, or a rebuild based on a broken down example that needed a new panel, trannies, etc. The speakers look gen. enough IMHO. The connection tags thing isn't an issue, I don't think. We've seen lots of examples of how the mid-60's incarnation of the Marshall company often wasn't too choosy about the components they chucked into their lower-end products (like 18-watt combos :D ). Maybe that's all they had left that particular afternoon :evil:

On a more positive note, this is probably a pretty damned fine amp in its own right. I don't know how much you've paid for it, or what you plan to use it for. The bottom line is - if you're a player, you will almost certainly have a fab-sounding amp which will be the envy of your peers. If you're a collector or a dealer, it's a lemon, sorry.

Best Wishes, Colin

PS This reminds me - I must send Gabi my original pics to re-post in the gallery for reference in situations like this...
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Post by Plexi »

Hello Mr. "C"

"""But, the plastic feet look identical""" The feet are correct.. but i was pointing out that they looked worn on the bottom,or amp was moved alot,and for tolex in this good of shape with no tear or scratch at all..just don't match up with the feet worn on the bottom..

The Ground switch was on some panels..


I guess since they robbed Ians pic,they may be lurking and laughing.
And it isn't funny..

i think Colin summed it up..it still may be a good amp..but if you bought it going on mis-info from the seller.. Then that sucks, and its not right.

As Ian pointed out,the cabs went through changes or periods.. His back panels have the screw holes in a different pattern than the later models.

But the tolex on this amp..and cut on the back side.. Jim was pretty good at doing the tolex, and had done many cabs by the time this amp was made....unless someone new covered this one..lol Or Jim was toasted from the glue..lol the cutting of the excess trim is just way to sloppy, and can still see the glue trail. The piece in the control corner looks to be missing..

I did find the part in the Doyle book of why he signed the cabs/and at one point he wanted who ever did the work to sign it.. it was to show he did the work or whoever,and if there were any amps that looked doggy to him, or came back because of inferior workmanship,i guess he'd know whos butt to tear..or they couldn't blame it on him. I think now, if he were to sign a cab, it would just show it passed his approval..


Now you can see where having info and pics..and small details can be helpfull, just blows my mind that the seller sent you Ians amp pic,for this amp..
Richie
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Post by Plexi »

This has been interesting,as for the font.. as loverocker pointed out.


"""Hmmm... too fuzzy to really make it out. If typeface did vary at the time (would require both multiple suppliers and a lack of QC at Marshall on delivery), it would be possible, of course."""

I guess one would have to have a lot of these amps to compare..and know they were real.. They did change at one point,the ground switch.. and the 20 watters also used the same or shared faceplate.
Just wondering if they changed the type on maybe the ones that used the ground ,compared to the standby faceplates. I remember when we were first doing our clones..we talked about the faceplates,and we wanted the standby feature,so thats what we went with for our clone amps..Something you could use..lol and now we have ground AC cords..

I guess if one would compare all the face plates that used the ground..to the ones that used the standby..and see if they match in the font.

As loverocker said,it could be they used different suppliers,or changed during the period.. Maybe Doyle book needs a update.

Richie
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Post by Ian »

Hmm…?

Colin;- what about the photo of the 18W Plexi with Ground Toggle in Marshall’s 1966 Catalogue?? At one time it seems Marshall must have made it with a Ground instead of Standby? But, oh yes please; can we have your photos back again?

Wannatone;- you said “chassis has been thoroughly cleaned and buffedâ€
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Wannatone
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Post by Wannatone »

Ian,

Great point with the doyle book ground switch! I guess they made them for the US market?
BTW, on page 187 it looks like the font on the 1985 front panel is like mine :?:
Fortunately, I had downloaded the pics of your great amp before the server went down. :) Obviously not for selling fishy amps. :wink:

ColinM,
I would never have payed that much for a player´s amp. :(

Plexi,
yes, I think we can´t take one particular amp as a bible. But, it´s extremely helpful to have high resolution pics of at least one original amp.

Ian,
it´s just a bit more confusing. The inspection label photo the emailed me showed an old looking label with a slightly different date.
The one in my amp looks too new to me. It has just some new polish staining on it. I´ve never seen an inspection label with a frame around the table lines 8O
Yes, the polished under the label, too 8O Maybe the´ve screwed up the original or, it´s a different chassis... :roll:

That´s what the seller emailed today:
mmmmmmm
Thank you for the mail and happy that the amplifier arrived ok , in regards to your thoughts on the amplifier , the amp as anyone will advise is one of THE CLEANEST EXAMPLES YOU WILL EVER FIND , i think any dealer will advise it can easily be described as MUSEUM QUALITY so i really cannot believe that the condition of this particuler amplifier is not acceptable to you ,please allow me to advise my answers to you questions

1. The box is recovered or repro ???? If you look at the actual tolex of the box you can CLEARLEY see that the covering is original as reproduction tolex has a differant style of grain as well as having a white backing to the vinyl this can easily be verified by anyone who is familier with original marshall amplifiers (also if a poor condition box is recovered why are all screws, badges , panel, cover , so clean and match the overall cosmetic appearance of the amplifier ???)

2. The Chasis , this may have been cleaned as aluminium always tarnishes even if the amplifier has only had a small amount of use although does polishing the amp devalue ????

3.The Board , the contains mostley all original components except for several replaced capacitors although any qualified technician will advise this is normal on any vintage amplifier as capactors do leak (if you would like the non functioning originals i will gladley forward these )

4.The speakers (date codes) 10 inch celstions never have date codes like the ink numbers found on the 12 inch speakers so the only numbers that would have been on the speakers is that of the model numbers and not any particuler date codes (if you required some 10 inch speakers with model designation still in tact i will be willing to forward these )

To summarise i really do think the points you mention are exceptionally minor (i can rectify some by suplying the original components) and i still maintain that this amplifier is TRULY EXCEPTIONAL condition and for the sum of $$xxxx (if you do some research you will find that any 18 watt combo in the US is fetching around the 4500++++$$$$ mark for even average examples and i have just sold a used 7/10 2+12 example at 6500$$$$ and the customer was exceptionally happy ) it was an exceptionally good buy and if you are not happy with the above i will GLADLEY FORWARD YOU A FULL REFUND for the above amplifier once the amp is recieved
Best Regards XXXXXX
P.s Have you actually tried the amplifier ???? Is the sound of interest ????Or are you purely purchasing to look at ????
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Not any word about the wrong chassis and the ripped off OT lugs, though... :wink:
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