New Production vs. NOS - Is there someting in the middle $s?

[amonte]

I've heard a lot about how great NOS tubes sound, but simply put, the cost is a bit prohibitive for me. I've got two amps that need to be retubed and if I used new production JJ's, it would run me around $100. I don't even want to imagine what the cost would be to go all NOS.

I'm familiar with some of the NOS brands (Telefunken, Mullard, etc.), but these seem to get quite expensive. Is there something that falls in between the cost of new 12AX7's and EL84's and the cost of NOS tubes that will offer a noticeable improvement in sound and longer life/better performance? Having only used new production tubes, the world of NOS is very unclear to me - not sure what to get, what it should cost, and what it will sound like.

What about the newer "reissues", ie the JJ ECC803, the GrooveTubes "Mullard", the new "Tung Sols", etc.?

[dartanion]

To put it bluntly, NO! There is really nothing in between except used/pulls of old tubes (what I call UOS = Used Old Stock). You can get a bunch of UOS tubes for the cost of 1-2 NOS tubes.

The problem with new production tubes is that the quality control is very poor and the tubes barely meet specifications. NOS tubes were made in an era when most electronic devices were tube based and quality is what set one manufacturer apart from another. That isn't the case anymore.

FWIW, if you go the NOS route (from a reputable vendor), you probably won't have to change tubes for a long time (years). With new prod., you'll have to change them more often. In the long run, you'll end up spending the same or more using new prod tubes in the life span of good NOS.

[rjgtr]

Here's my opinion -

Not all new production tubes are inferior to NOS tube in both Specs and Tone. JJ 6V6s and EL84s are much more robust than many NOS versions. The tone of JJs is not the same as NOS but is very good in most cases.

I use a mixture of both NOS and new production in most of my amps. NOS is most valuable in the input stages of amps. For instance, my 18 watt has a NOS Mullard in V1, a NOS Brimar in V2 and a GT12ax7-M in V3. The output tubes are JJ EL84s. This amp sounds great.

I have also tried some NOS GE and some of Sarge's NOS Russians and Ei and Sovtek EL84s. My opinion is the Sovteks don't sound as good. The NOS tubes sound really good and so do the Ei and JJs. They all have slightly different tonal characteristics, but they all sound very good. In the case of the NOS GE, it is a very clear sounding tube that doesn't break up as quickly. The NOS Russians have a big low end, rolled off highs and break up well. The JJs or Eis don't have quite the lows, but the highs are chimey and the midrange is clear.

I think in the case of power tubes, NOS isn't as much of a necessity. The better brands like JJ and SED (=C=) compare very favorably to NOS. In the case of SED (who unfortunately don't make EL84s) they are very good sounding. In JJs case they have their own flavor, but sound great too. I do find that current JJ preamp tube models seem to be voiced more for the high gain Messy Burgler type sounds. I also find that CHinese 12ax7s work well in many amps.

The bottom line is tone is in the ear of the beholder. I think using NOS for preamp tubes is worth it, especially as preamp tubes last a pretty long time. In power tubes, I think new production does just fine.

[novemberrain]

To put it bluntly, NO! There is really nothing in between except used/pulls of old tubes (what I call UOS = Used Old Stock). You can get a bunch of UOS tubes for the cost of 1-2 NOS tubes.

Yeah, exactly right.

But there are some REALLY great "pulls" out there. Like anything else the really good stuff is gettin' thin on the ground but here's a few suggestions:

Old P.A. amps from churches. Shop around! Many of these units were only used on Sundays and when they crapped out sometimes they languished in the choir loft for years. Old Masco and Bell "clockdial" P.A. heads show up here. I won't turn away old Bogen stuff, either!

Churches are also a good place to look of old organs which also contain tons o' good pulls. Look for Kinsman or Baldwin, those things are the freakin' motherlode!

Schools. Look for old phonographs, projector amps or reel to reel tape decks. TONS of this stuff went to the dump already but ya never know, as usual, look in the attic! Even solid state stuff like the '60s Califones have nice Switchcraft jacks and Rola alnico speakers!

Then there are the obvious sources like old console stereos.

If you have a good tube tester you can match for quality. Remember, NOS tubes ain't NOS anymore the moment you stick 'em in your amp!

[Nathan]

There you go -I was gonna say pulls. Used NOS if you will. If there's life left in it, it's still the same tube, and could offer you lots of tonal enjoyment. I nabbed 4 RCA blackplate 6V6 for $50 on ebay. Pretty good if you ask me, and a better way to mix & match until you find what you're really wanting for a given amp. Then you can go NOS if you know for sure that a certain brand is your favorite.

[zaphod_phil]

Is there something that falls in between the cost of new 12AX7's and EL84's and the cost of NOS tubes that will offer a noticeable improvement in sound and longer life/better performance?

They don't have to be that expensive if you stay clear of the few big name NOS brands. Contact the Sarge and he'll get you some absolutely prime NOS tubes with tone to die for - and at *very* reasonable "in between" prices. Just what you're looking for.

[rjgtr]

And here's another thought.

Get just one preamp tube of each prospective brand and try them in both channels. Then buy another to compliment it in the other channel. I find that using a Mullard in the Trem channel and an RFT in the normal channel is a cool combination. The RFT tends to break up sooner, while the clarity of the Mullard is really great, especially in the low mids.

It seems that Sarge has a good stock going of some really nice tubes all at very reasonable prices. If you catch the NOS bug it does pay to use multiple vendors. I buy from Sarge but also from KCA NOS tubes. It is sort of like a treasure hunt, one or the other may have what you're looking for. Whatever you do, deal with a reputable dealer. There's a lot of relabelling going on. eBay is full of rip off artists; make sure you can really trust your vendor.

[ajkimba]

I just got some early 60's hex plate tesla roznov el84's from the Sarge.

Like rjgtr said, they have a great big tight bass but do roll off some highs. They would be good in a bright amp to round things out. I paid $30 + shipping for a matched pair New Old Stock, not pulls. A great deal and a great sounding el84.

Look in dealer adds for his address, but get ready to his decipher his emails, your talk'in to the Sarge!

[markb]

Check out Jim McShane's site. He sells tested pulls for a good price. If tubes test as almost new, you should get a few thousand hours out of them if you aren't abusing them. He posts on the Audio Asylum boards, and seems to have a good reputation.

[novemberrain]

BTW the spec for lifespan on NOS 12AX7s is 2000+ hours, that means you can play eight hours a day five days a week and re-tube once a year!

The all-time endurance champions have got to be the Sylvanias I pulled out of an industrial application, they ran three shifts a day for over 40 years before I got 'em! I STILL got 'em and they're STILL goin'!

[dartanion]

I bought my '69 SFTR in the early '90s, still has all the original RCA Tubes that are going strong. 36 years +!!! An SFTR is a pretty harsh environment for power tubes with about 500V on the plates!

[amonte]

Wow, thanks for all the replies guys!

I don't have a tube tester unfortunately...might be a worthy investment.

Great idea about the pulls. My dad actually has an old Ampeg (I think it's a B4?) bass amp lying around. I wonder what tubes came stock in those (he never changed them as far as I know). Should I just drop them into one of my amps and try them out?

I will also keep an eye out at flea markets and the like for old tube gear. Great tip with the churches.

zaphod_phil, I'm not really familiar with anything other than some of the big names - Telefunken, Mullard, etc. - can you recommend some other brands that might be more cost effective? Does the sarge have a website?

markb, do you know the website address?

[markb]

Whoops - I thought I posted it.


http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane/

[lagerdog]

www.tubetramp.com

site under construction, but his email is there... very good guy to work with...

[T-bones]

I went on Jims website to look at his stuff. If he gets these prices for his tubes thats great I guess. $80 for a NOS Mullard really. I have been selling NIB tubes for quite some time and I will tell you, there is no shortage what so ever on them, there are tons and tons of them. A lot of people just buy buy buy them up, I guess hoping to sell at higher prices. Tubes are tubes in the sense that if the test at the top of the scale and are pretty steady at high volume your good. Don't get me wrong, I grew up on the older stuff so in my mind thats what I like to use, but in all fairness, I have used new production tubes with perfect results. I have the 12AX7M groove tube model in my 18 and as far as a real Mullard being that much better well I don't think so. You can buy exellent tubes on ebay from the right sellers. 100% feeback tells the story. I don't want to mention any names, but I have sold almost my whole collection of NIB tubes to many of the tube dealers you buy from. The $50 Mullard 12AX7 jumps up to $80 +. Dont get caught up in the preamp tube thing, they last a very long time and then some. Power tubes on the other hand well maybe once or twice a year, but that is playing out on a nightly basis and not just turning a amp on in the house. I have a few very good pulls that test better than new at half those prices. If I was planning on getting rich on selling tubes it has not happened yet. Well I'm sure there are other members of the site that will agree with me and others will not. I like to put it this way, if your tone is pretty much half way convincing thats all that matters. Get a friend and do the good old blind fold test and I think you'll be very suprised at some of the out comes in new vs nos. T-bones.

[markb]

I posted Jim's site for the used tubes, not the NOS. Personally, I have difficulty believing a guy sitting at the bar in a club can hear the difference. And after all, he's the paying customer. Hendrix didn't sound great to me through a transistor radio becuase he had the best tubes.

To each his own. I just found some NOS 12SJ7s for $2.50 ea. that I'm going to find a use for - just becuase I can. And if Jim McShane doesn't get the best price he can, then he's a knucklehead. And if someone sells them for less, then you're a knucklehead for buying them from Jim. Works both ways.

[T-bones]

Sorry, all I said was paying that kind of money for NOS or even used is pretty silly. I would have to be quite honest and say I did not see one tube that was a bargain at all. And is it not so, we all like to get things at a good price. I mean really, where do you think they buy there tubes ? They buy them on ebay. So when I see a lot of members of different sites putting down ebay for buying tubes and then buying them from a so-called tube dealer who just got all his stuff on ebay either on auction or off. Maybe I'm just stupid, yea thats it. Well I know one thing for sure, I'm no knucklehead. T-bones.

[rjgtr]

If the eBay seller is reputable, has a track record and will replace bad tubes, then that's fine with me. But there's a reason to buy from Sarge or KCA and that is customer service and warranty. With eBay there's no guarantee you're dealing with someone who knows what they are doing, even if they have great feedback.

I've bought a lot of stuff from eBay, but I just think people need to be careful about the claims of some of the sellers. There's more than a few unscrupulous people who take new production and relabel it with NOS logos. Just be careful.

[T-bones]

Richard, you have a good point about service and all, but you should never get a bad tube from a dealer that screens his or her tubes. Before I sell a NIB tube it is put through it's paces in my amps to be sure of pure chewing satisfaction, and I really don't think a lot of tube dealers do that, they say they do, but lets be realistic on this subject. Tube testers are good for what they are, but they are not a live working amp. As far as relabeling new production tubes with old names would be pretty hard to do. I don't know of one new production tube that even resembles a NOS. So I would say for anyone out there, do your homework look at the construction of NOS tubes and learn the production codes and all raised markings on these tubes, you will never be in doubt of getting ripped off. But as said before there are tons of NIB NOS out there and to listen to these idiots about it drying up is so pathetic. But I will stand behind what I know and most of those NIB or NOS or whatever there being called come from ebay in one way or another. Whether you buy from a seller on ebay that has tons of NIB stuff or you buy from a reputable dealer that buys on ebay. No doubt tubes that are being built today will get more consistent as guality control improves. The Chinese 12AX7 etc is getting very good and I would watch there stuff closely over the next five years. Lets face it, theres no way that any USA, U.K. etc. company is going back into tube production today, it's a losing game. Even if all that was left in the world were communist made tubes, I'd buy them put them in my amps and make music and not worry about whether there the chic tube to use. Everyone looks including myself for that so-called holy grail tone, but in reality it does not exist. I read a lot of posts on this site and I'm convinced a lot of people keep going in circles looking for things to make what is already good better. Kind of like guitar strings, everyone has a new and better string, well I've tried them all and always go back to the Ernie Ball slinky's. T-bones.

[rjgtr]

T-Bones, I agree with you completely on your last post. That is why I generally use New Production output tubes, except in the case of 6V6s, where I just like Brimars and RCAs. However, JJ 6V6s are great tubes as well. In the case of preamp tubes, there are several new production tubes that are very good, but not as good as a NOS Mullard or Brimar, IMHO. However, I usually only use 1 or 2 NOS preamp tubes in the first couple of positions in any of my amps. At the end of the day, it is just making minute adjustments anyway.

I also agree that too many people chase their tails on tone, when most of it is in your hands. To me the amp tone is more about making me happy than the audience, so I perform well.

Funny enough, I use Regular Slinkys too! I stopped trying new stuff because I just like how they sound.